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03:07 < bitcoin-wizards4> theoritcally if there was one personn mining for the whole bitcoin network, assuming they have a decent intel i7 is that enough power to mine for the whole bitcoin network?
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03:15 < bitcoin-wizards4> if one cpu is too limiting how to you become aware you need more mining for the amount of nodes/ trasnactions you have?
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03:23 < fluffypony> bitcoin-wizards4: mining processing power has no real correlation to "number of transactions" or "number of nodes"
03:25 < bitcoin-wizards4> yes i know that
03:25 < bitcoin-wizards4> its about the competition
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03:25 < bitcoin-wizards4> but if there were only 1 miner on the bitcoin network 1 cpu should technically be possible to mine the whole thing yes?
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03:26 < bitcoin-wizards4> (and receive the full 25btc + transactions)
03:26 < bitcoin-wizards4> when more power is added theres more useless cpu clycles as far as i know
03:26 < fluffypony> Of course - can 1 CPU verify the whole thing?
03:27 < fluffypony> Then 1 CPU could've created it (given constant, low difficulty of course)
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04:41 < bitcoin-wizards4> so we can assume yes the whole bitcoin network could run with one miner just using a cpu if noone else wanted to mine
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05:28 < bsm1175321> kanzure, maaku, pigeons: I've long wanted some serious economists to take a look at what can be done with a crypto-currency.  A while back I made an interest rate patch for Bitcoin.  It's stupidly trivial to have negative interest rates.  And unlike fiat currencies, the negative (or positive) interest rate can affect *every* coin, rather than only making the rich richer, it uniformly affects the money supply.
05:29 < bsm1175321> I would *love* to see some kind of dynamical system feedback loop that can determine the appropriate interest rate, similar to how we adjust the target difficulty now.
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05:30 < bsm1175321> Insert Oracles, macroeconomic inputs, and some smart contract logic...
05:34 < bsm1175321> Then we can order this fine gift for every employee of the Federal Reserve. http://www.kleargear.com/1474.html
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06:14 < kanzure> bsm1175321: yes i was writing a paper a while back where i argue that "yo dawgs this means monetary policy can impact all reserves rather than only the reserves stored at the central bank"
06:15 < bsm1175321> The argument is clear.  An appropriate dynamical feedback loop is the hard part.
06:16 < kanzure> bsm1175321: i'm curious what you would list as your best arguments for central bank use of bitcoin or sidechain issued assets?
06:16 < kanzure> monetary policy tools were among my primary reasons i could think of, although my main argument was the one i gave you above- perhaps there are other good ones there?
06:16 < bsm1175321> Well this is one of them: the ability to affect the entire monetary supply rather than only that held at a central bank...
06:17 < bsm1175321> The ability to construct a self-executing dynamical system with cryptographic inputs (removing human fallibility and politics) is another...
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06:18 < bsm1175321> Also the ability to make successful demurrage without triggering asset flight...
06:20 < kanzure> do central banks experience problems with execution due to human failure modes? surely not ?
06:21 < bsm1175321> Generally not in the US, but look at Zimbabwe, Argentina, Greece...
06:21 < kanzure> ah- making "instantaneous" moves before the market can react- that's pretty interesting.
06:23 < kanzure> wouldn't most central bank messages be censored by the network? for example, if money is taken away by the monetary policy, why would anyone want to transmit those messages?
06:24 < bsm1175321> Imagine a dynamical interest rate retargeting that followed other coins as a light client, and used cryptographic information from them, such as the asset flow from one coin to another, volumes, relative price, etc.  One could design a purely algorithmic, cryptographic interest rate retargeting between these coins.
06:25 < bsm1175321> Interest rate controls are macroeconomic.  If you're looking at your balance in $UNITS it seems bad to have less of them.  But if you're actually going to end up with more value, relative to $ANOTHERUNIT it's a net win.
06:26 < bsm1175321> Because of the way interest rates are implemented (primarily affecting capital), they're also used as a way to twiddle the relative importance of labor vs. capital in the economy, among other things.
06:28 < bsm1175321> Then there are other tools, like buying corporate bonds, real estate bailouts, etc that disproportionately affect one sector of the economy over another.
06:28 < bsm1175321> Imagine instead that each "sector" had its own coin, and relative interest rates could be adjusted between them...
06:29 < kanzure> why would coins not interfere/intermingle between sectors?
06:29 < bsm1175321> They *would* and that would be part of the retargeting calculation.
06:29 < kanzure> and how would you measure intermingle rate?
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06:30 < bsm1175321> cross chain swaps are visible on the ledger.
06:30 < kanzure> well okay... but how would you force the sectors to use those tokens? i'm not seeing it yet.
06:31 < bsm1175321> Hey I'm dreaming here.  I leave implementation to someone else.  Don't want to force anyone to do anything.  But it seems like there's a powerful economic tool here.
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06:31 < kanzure> typical academicia :P
06:31 < kanzure> *academia
06:31 < bsm1175321> Heh ;-)
06:31 < bsm1175321> I make zee good ideas.  If people don't use good ideas for political reasons, that sucks, but politics sucks.
06:32 < kanzure> when i was looking at central bank arguments for bitcoin tech, things like "you get the current network effects for adoption" are utterly worthless arguments
06:32 < bsm1175321> No this would have to be centrally imposed.
06:33 < kanzure> i mean that central banks can use whatever tech they want, doesn't have to be bitcoin
06:34 < bsm1175321> But the natural fluctuations of markets would cause capital to move into the crypto systems over a single fiat system.  Sooner or later it will be advantageous to buy my house by converting dollars to LaborCoin and exploiting the exchange rate between LaborCoin and RealEstateCoin.
06:34 < kanzure> one argument i was thinking of is that a central bank might want to do a sidechain off the bitcoin blockchain because by operating the sidechain/bitcoin peg they would have better access to raw data, which otherwise some other entity is going to have control over
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06:35 < bsm1175321> I have to dig into sidechains...just about finished with my braids paper, now I have to implement it.  Debating whether it should be a sidechain or its own coin...
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06:35 < kanzure> another argument is something like "well you will have to use a blockchain eventually because it's politically cheaper for you to do this than to bow to the 'audit the fed' demands"
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06:36 < kanzure> e.g. trying to find good arguments for why a central bank should integrate with bitcoin or sidechains or other public systems, rather than just throwing up api.federalreserve.org and saying "okay here's our centralized ledger, have at it folks".
06:37 < bsm1175321> There's a strong case to enable cross-chain swaps, regardless of what asset they create.
06:37 < bsm1175321> I tried to make this case to Hyperledger last week, along with some Blockstream folks.  It looks like we might have been successful.
06:37 < kanzure> i was thinking AML/KYC requirements might prevent them from doing that- and why a blockchain with many participating miners is more preferable- but this is basically boiling down to a political risk.
06:38 < kanzure> (dunno if central banks are subjected to AML/KYC but i'm sure politicians can scream and scream at them for "supporting the terrorpumpkins" and such)
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06:39 < bsm1175321> Not well enough: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/indian-banking-on-alert-after-81-million-stolen-from-bangladeshs-central-bank/articleshow/51623675.cms
06:40 < kanzure> not well enough what?
06:40 < bsm1175321> Not enough Interbank AML/KYC, evidently
06:41 < kanzure> AML/KYC can't stop financing of terrible things because people get converted after they have been approved
06:41 < bsm1175321> AML/KYC is a boondoggle, IMHO.
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06:43 < bsm1175321> To quote gmaxwell: you can build a non-anonymous system on top of an anonymous system, but not the other way around.  So building AML/KYC in at the ground level is dangerous.
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06:58 < kanzure> bsm1175321: yes but to a central bank they probably don't care about having their national economy support anonymous systems :)
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07:00 < c0rw1n> kanzure: well they still produce cash...
07:01 < kanzure> that's probably just a legacy artifact; there have been some indications that countries want to stop doing that.
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07:01 < c0rw1n> yeah :(
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07:19 < kanzure> bsm1175321: yesterday this was published, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/A%20Bitcoin%20standard:%20Lessons%20from%20the%20gold%20standard%20-%202016.pdf
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08:15 < bsm1175321> kanzure: ooh interesting!
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08:21 < bsm1175321> There are a number of very negative consequences from having open banking...there are plenty of legitimate reasons that you don't want anyone else seeing your balance.  Switzerland has for generation had "banking privacy laws" which do not allow the government to pry into your finances, yet their government operated just fine and has been able to collect taxes.
08:21 < bsm1175321> Spying on everyone, as a means of funding the government and preventing crime, is not the only way to attack those problems.
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08:22 < bsm1175321> In Switzerland you basically negotiate your tax rate with the local Canton.
08:22 < midnightmagic> not really sure about private balances thing..
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08:22 < bsm1175321> Also if the government can spy on balances, so can nefarious actors.
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19:39 < zooko> Hey wizards, has bramc published any docs about his Merkle Tree design?
19:40 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-09-18.log
19:41 < zooko> I ask because ebfull is working on a Merkle Tree implementation for Zcash and I'm curious to compare/contrast designs.
19:41 < zooko> Thanks, kanzure!
19:41 < kanzure> also https://gist.github.com/maaku/2aed2cb628024800044d
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23:32 < nonaTure> is there a way to download only the past (e.g.) 3 months of blockchain data when syncing? would be super useful
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23:47 < nonaTure> regular pruning mode would still download the entire blockchain. for dev purposes it would be great to be able to specify from which blockhash to start syncing
23:49 < nonaTure> related: a new testnet would be great, too. also to be able to sync faster and to some experiments
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 03 00:00:03 2016