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01:08 < CubicEarth> is this channel used anymore?
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01:21 < buZz> doesnt look like it
01:28 < CubicEarth> yet here we are
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06:20 < bsm117532> I can't get this paper out of my head: https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/553.pdf ("Publicly Verifiable Proofs of Sequential Work") -- which comes down to composed hashes (hash of a hash of a hash of a...) and proving sequential work by putting a Merkle tree on it, and a set of challenges in ZKP via Fiat-Shamir.
06:22 < bsm117532> I want to measure network topology and latencies, in a cryptographically provable manner, using this.  That is, imagine every node has one core devoted to this computation.  When it receives a message, it looks at the latest hash and inputs some data from the received message.  The next message it receives it can provide a proof of elapsed time between the two messages.
06:22 < bsm117532>  This is a lower bound for obvious reasons, and must be calibrated relative to other nodes.
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06:26 < bsm117532> This could have a better (faster) measure of time than Bitcoin, without trusted-clock vulnerabilities, and eliminate the energy consumption due to embarrassingly parallelization of Bitcoin's PoW, since this algorithm is non-parallelizable -- it would ensure one miner = one node.
06:38 < nsh> bitcoin PoW's parallelizability gives it progress-freeness, which is essential to convergence. one there is a cost to abandoning progress in light of new transactions then the incentive to mine the verymostcurrent mempool is undermined and the coupling between economic incentive and byzantine tolerance gets loose
06:38 < kanzure> https://elementsproject.org/posts/the-federated-peg-in-elements-alpha/ OP_WITHDRAWPROOFVERIFY OP_WPV OP_REORGPROOFVERIFY OP_RPV
06:38 < nsh> *once
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06:41 < nsh> oh, and progress-freeness also counters mining centralisation pressure
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07:08 < bsm117532> nsh: Sequential work can be progress free too.  A sequence of hash-of-hash-of-... can be simultaneously measuring multiple things, where whenever I receive a time point I want to measure, I insert it into the sequence...h(h(H|data))  where H is the last hash and "data" is some new incoming data at time t.
07:09  * nsh nods
07:11 < nsh> will read the paper :)
07:11 < nsh> .g depth-robust directed acyclic graphs
07:11 < yoleaux> https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/553.pdf
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07:14 < bsm117532> I'm also wondering whether a "braid" IS a depth-robust directed acyclic graph...and whether that fact can be used somehow...
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07:31 < Guest49771> bsm117532, i like the idea of measuring sequential time while also mining parallelizable work!
07:31 < Guest49771> i don't exactly know what to do with it though
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16:10 < nsh> why is modular exponentiation an inherently sequential task without knowing the factorisation of N
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17:45 < eragmus> buZz and cubicearth - Yes, the channel is used, but developers are also especially busy these days... so activity is distributed between all the various channels, e.g. bitcoin-wizards, segwit-dev, bitcoin-core-dev, bitcoin-dev, bitcoin, etc. etc.
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18:45 < mrkent> Anyone here have a educated opinion on rootstock?
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19:10 < bsm117532> mrkent: Excited about rootstock.  Not sure I can offer an educated opinion on it.
19:11 < mrkent> bsm117532: Do you understand how it alleviates high orphan rates with the quick block times?
19:12 < bsm117532> nsh: It's in the formula at the end of p.1: "2^{2^D}  \equiv 2^{2^D \mod \phi(N)) (\mod N)"
19:13 < bsm117532> mrkent: no.
19:14 < bsm117532> It's my understanding that they're going to use a federated peg, which in principle can come to consensus very fast?
19:16 < bsm117532> I'm not a fan of such schemes...
19:16 < bsm117532> Must...braid...blockchain...
19:16 < mrkent> What's federated peg?
19:17 < bsm117532> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/37876/what-is-fed-peg-and-predefined-functionaries-with-sidechains
19:17 < bsm117532> https://elementsproject.org/posts/the-federated-peg-in-elements-alpha/
19:17 < bsm117532> The latter is a better answer...
19:18 < bsm117532> I've been thinking about this a lot WRT Hyperledger and some conversations with the Blockstream folks.
19:19 < bsm117532> We're still fundamentally missing a "prove what's going on in your ledger and I'll prove what's going on in mine" opcode.
19:20 < bsm117532> The existence of which would be a sea change in this community...
19:21 < bsm117532> I don't need to share your ledger, I just need to make proofs...
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19:22 < bsm117532> No one wants to share ledgers.  Everyone wants proof of execution.
19:29 < mrkent> Got sources on proof of execution?
19:30 < bsm117532> AKA better SPV.  I have no sources.
19:31 < bsm117532> I don't want to know or care how your database works.  But I want to know that my trade is executed.  How do we cryptographically communicate that?
19:31 < bsm117532> SPV and UTXO set commitments are halfway there, but I feel we have a long way to go.
19:31 -!- jtimon [~quassel@18.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:34 < mrkent> What about a 2WP sidechain that watched Bitcoin network? (assuming it's dependent on Bitcoin pegs to creation of any new side-coins)
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19:36 < bsm117532> this? http://www.rootstock.io/blog/sidechains-drivechains-and-rsk-2-way-peg-design
19:36 < bsm117532> Would love to discuss it.  Will attempt to offer an intelligent response sometime in the next 24h... ;-)
19:38 < kanzure> "federated peg" is explained in https://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
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19:46 < bsm117532> I'd say that paper is far from clear on the concept.
19:47 < bsm117532> There still exists a cryptographic "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" that has not been sufficiently demonstrated in a trustless context.
19:49 < mrkent> bsm117532: which method in the rootstock blog post were you referring to? entangled blockchains?
19:50  * bsm117532 will read and try to comment intelligently in the morning.
19:51 < mrkent> ty
19:56 < bsm117532> Anything that is not externally, cryptographically verifiable, is not enough.
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22:01 < eragmus> kanzure: Another federated peg explanation: https://elementsproject.org/posts/the-federated-peg-in-elements-alpha/
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22:48 < Taek> I mean, the problem nobody has been able to get past is that we can't seem to prove the state of a chain concisely without sharing all of the data
22:48 < Taek> a utxo commitment isn't sufficient, because the pow behind the block might be lying
22:49 < Taek> you need to prove that a utxo set has a certain amount of work behind it, AND that the utxo set is accepted according to the consensus rules of whatever chain you are communicating with
22:49 < Taek> snarks might one day be enough to do that
22:49 < Taek> but, the cryptographic assumptions are strong and there is still a trusted setup that's required
22:50 < Taek> so I wouldn't be happy using today's snarks as proof that a certain state exists
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 19 00:00:51 2016