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04:28 < proslogion> can you ever have something like a formally verified consensus lib?
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07:52 < kanzure> proslogion: formal verification is definitely a goal for consensus-critical code, yes.
07:52 < proslogion> kanzure: thanks
07:52 < kanzure> and also formal verification of merklized abstract syntax trees and various transaction scripts
07:55 < kanzure> Taek: dunno if it would eliminate the requirement for PoW (probably not), but it would be nice to have a family of hash functions where you can assert self-consistency with a set of rules that hash to a particular value that is easy to verify but intractable to forge
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07:55 < kanzure> Taek: (such that the rule adherence can be verified without total verification) (i mean, other than time-dependent rules like ordering...)
07:56 < kanzure> Taek: somewhat like the idea of renaming bitcoin to "the hash of a formally verified spec of the bitcoin rules" hehe
07:58 < bsm117532> We'd definitely have to write down a formal definition from the rules and depart from this "Satoshi's code is the bug-for-bug protocol" silliness.
07:58 < bsm117532> *of the rules
08:00 < kanzure> i would agree with you if by that you mean "the existing bugs get included in the definition"
08:00 < kanzure> unfortunately sussing out all the bugs is pretty challenging, because unknown unknowns and such
08:02 < bsm117532> The existing bugs get found and fixed.
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09:46 < nsh> core can converge on a formal model but should remain consensus-canonical while it does
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09:53 < maaku> proslogion: iirc testing of libsecp256k1 involved some formal verification
09:53 < proslogion> maaku: i will search for that, thanks
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09:54 < maaku> i'm not sure your search will turn up anything, but you can ask on #secp256k1
09:55 < proslogion> cool
09:55 < maaku> by which I mean it was just something people did, and I'm not sure it's documented
09:56 < maaku> anyway it is definately a goal among a certain subset of people (including those who did libsecp256k1) to rework the consensus code to be amenable to increasingly better formal verification
09:57 < maaku> it's one of the reasons libsecp256k1 and all other new consensus code is typically done in C -- the tools are better for C over C++
09:58 < proslogion> interesting, i didn't know there are tools for that :)
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10:07 < maaku> well the tools call it 'static analysis' but that's just formal verification by another name
10:08 < nickler> proslogion: I did not play around with formal verification, but I've applied a technique called 'symbolic execution' to some parts of the libsecp code. (https://klee.github.io/)
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14:44 < Taek> bsm117532: fixing bugs is a hardfork, unfortunately. At that point it's almost better to create a separate currency entirely
14:46 < kanzure> technically, a hard-fork is only when the bug has been triggered or exploited
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23:00 < jzoticus> hey, anyone around?
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