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08:36 < amiller> is anyone working on N-party lightning
08:36 < amiller> as a way of reducing collateral costs
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08:47 < katu> amiller: is there something particularly stopping a payment channel to be a multisig one?
08:49 < instagibbs> amiller, you could do it with a janky softfork, yes
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08:49 < instagibbs> in Bitcoin, I asked you a while ago to try and do it in ethereum as-is, it might be possible
08:50  * amiller forgot lol
08:50 < instagibbs> hah!
08:50 < instagibbs> busy with interviews IIRC
08:50 < amiller> i don't think i understood what the goal would be until just now :)
08:50 < instagibbs> ah, right, it's pretty simple what the benefits are, but the negatives can also get quite high with higher N
08:51 < instagibbs> a native Ethereum N party would be something to play with, as you wouldn't have to lobby for a softfork(which has ~0% chance of being deployed)
08:52 < amiller> yeah, once it's clear what the behavior should be with an eth prototype, then we can try to figure out how to stuff it into utxos and cltv
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11:44 < xcthulhu> Hi!  In understand that in principle public keys can be can be recovered from signatures, and that BitCoin Core has entertained implementing this in the past.  Now that block space is scarce, are they doing this now?  Sorry if this is a n00b question
11:46 < belcher> its believed satoshi didnt know about this feature so bitcoin signatures dont use it
11:46 < belcher> segwit probably allows it to be used
11:48 < xcthulhu> That’s a pity.  Thank you.
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11:48 < Taek> can you do that with Schnorr?
11:48 < xcthulhu> Hopefully the segwit soft fork takes advantage of this…
11:48 < adam3us> Taek yes
11:49 < adam3us> the problem is schnorr supports batch signatures which requires the public key and verifies about 2x faster if i recall in libsecp
11:49 < adam3us> so if you omitted the pubkey you'd lose the ability to do fast batch sig verification
11:50 < Taek> depends on where the bottleneck ends up I suppose. If 3 years from now we have 32 core computers it might not be an issue
11:50 < adam3us> the other thing is schnorr signature aggregation if used across transaction inputs reduces average transaction size by 30% about.
11:50 < Taek> still wrapping my head around this, it's new to me, but I don't think you would lose signature aggregation
11:50 < adam3us> and it's coin join compatible so if you coin join all transactions in a block you get almost 50% smaller transactions.
11:51 < Taek> oh nvm you can't combine signatures without having all the pubkeys, because someone could make inverse pubkeys to omit signatures
11:51 < adam3us> so the point with schnorr aggregation is it reduces the number of signatures used at all.  if you coinjoin everything there is one signature in the entire block.  if you aggregate across your own inputs only it's 30% smaller not sure what ratio fewer sigs that is.
11:52 < adam3us> Taek yes you still need the pubkeys after aggregation
11:52 < adam3us> aggregation is possible because you can add schnorr pub keys and schnorr signatures and they still verify.
11:52 < adam3us> Taek did you figure out the inverted pubkeys on the fly ;) or you remembering from before?
11:53 < Taek> sipa told me about it at one point
11:53 < Taek> a good memory goes a long way :)
11:56 < adam3us> but what you could do i was thinking is have miners omit the pubkeys optionally.
11:56 < adam3us> eg if the blocks were under pressure they could tradeoff size for verification speed.
11:56 < adam3us> recalling you can still verify, just without the 50% batch verification speed improvement
11:57 < adam3us> gmaxwell was also saying you could send the pubkey instead of pubkeyhash + pubkey, that would be somewhere in between in size.
11:59 < adam3us> Taek ie currently with p2sh it is sending pubkeyhash, and then pubkey+sig; using key recovery it would send pubkeyhash, then sig; with gmaxwell 3rd variant it could send pubkey, then sig which is still batch verifiable and in between in size between the 2 other options.
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12:00 < Taek> but then you lose privacy on the pubkey, which imho is important for doomsday stuff
12:00 < adam3us> Taek yes i like pubkeyhash only as the window for discrete log is then very short.
12:00 < Taek> because we only store pubkey hases before spending outputs, we can hard-fork in a guy-fawkes signature
12:01 < xcthulhu> If you have key recovery then you’ve already lost privacy
12:01 < Taek> xcthulhu: you have to reveal the pubkey when you make the signature anyway. The privacy is for before you sign anything
12:02 < adam3us> xcthulhu Taek means it delays knowledge of the pubkey so you cant try to do a huge discrete log attack, as you cant start the DL attack until you know the pubkey (and people shouldnt be reusing pub keys)
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12:04 < xcthulhu> Heh.  I worked on Ethereum (just the mining algo, nothing else really).  I love how we never gave a damn about any of these concerns…
12:04 < xcthulhu> Not that they aren’t valid
12:05 < xcthulhu> It’s just Ethereum is a dog and pony show
12:05 < xcthulhu> Off-topic
12:05 < xcthulhu> Thanks for the discussion, guys.
12:06 < Taek> Ethereum is doing a fair number of innovative things, and they've done a good job of getting nontechnical people excited about blockchains
12:09 < MaxSan_> innovation is one thing but the whole "built it and they will come" is long dead. Its a good way to get an angry mob if promises are made about expectations of a platform that dont live up to requirements.
12:12 < xcthulhu> It’s a nice short term investment.
12:13 < MaxSan_> Not what I am about and I feel everything it offers is better done in different ways.
12:13 < Taek> Fwiw, Ethereum has had fewer angry mobs than Bitcoin. Though, they are younger
12:14 < MaxSan_> Anyone that offers "blockchain" solutions and smart contracts together their architectural  logic of the platform is probably dreadful or a marketing scam.
12:14 < xcthulhu> Hehe, I was at the head of one of those angry mobs a while back :D
12:14 < xcthulhu> (for Ethereum)
12:14 < belcher> do angry mobs really happen? wouldnt people just exit by selling?
12:14 < belcher> i dont think there have been any angry mobs in other altcoins
12:14 < xcthulhu> Ah, it was before launch
12:17 < xcthulhu> Anyway, I currently have a little contract work to do the crypto for an alt-coin.  Should I consider supporting Schnorr’s algorithm?
12:17 < xcthulhu> I’ll ask somewhere else if that’s off-topic here.
12:18 < xcthulhu> By Schnorr’s algorithm I mean Schnorr signatures.
12:18 < adam3us> probably easiest thing to do is wait until bitcoin does it soon and copy it.
12:18 < xcthulhu> lol
12:19 < xcthulhu> Yeah that was my plan… except I want to include a bit to recover the PubKey from my ECDSA signatures which is harmless.
12:19 < xcthulhu> bitcoinj has the code in there for this already tbh it’s just dead.
12:20 < xcthulhu> lol and ethereumj is just copy-pasta of bitcoinj I love how moronic those guys are.
12:21 < xcthulhu> Anyway, thanks adam3us
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12:30 < waxwing> isn't the interactivity of doing aggregated schnorr going to be a problem?
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12:35 < adam3us> well 30% of the potential ~50% compression comes from aggregating the inputs from your own multi-input transactions.
12:35 < adam3us> which you can do locally.
12:40 < waxwing> good point, true
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12:44 < adam3us> waxwing the interactivity is compatible with coinjoin interaction
12:44 < waxwing> true, no doubt about that
12:44 < waxwing> i was more interested when you were talking about aggregating whole blocks together :)
12:45 < waxwing> "interested", i mean i was wondering about it
12:45 < waxwing> but these other cases are clear cut in terms of advantages, and that's enough...
12:46 < waxwing> still quite fascinated about the effectively infinite "compression" achieved by this aggregation. feels like a free lunch somehow.
12:46 < waxwing> and yet the algebra is clear enough
12:47 < adam3us> waxwing well it doesnt totally get rid of the pubkey+sig because you have to retain all the pubkeys
12:48 < waxwing> sure. still surprising. except in as much as schnorr is pretty much what a digital signature "should" be from first principles, at least seems that way
12:48 < waxwing> so i guess the simplest possible construction is the one most likely to have nice "symmetries" or whatever
12:49 < adam3us> waxwing yeah i believe dsa never would have existed except us gov cheaped out on buying the now expired patent from prof klaus schnorr
12:50 < adam3us> an nsa guy twiddled with it enough claim no patent coverage and the resulting more complicated less flexible result was dsa
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12:51 < waxwing> i still can't quite believe i live in a world where people own equations
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13:45 < maaku> The fact that something as trivial as Schnorr can be patented says much about our system
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15:25 < sipa> ohai.
15:25 < fluffypony> ola
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