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09:41 < kanzure> functionary/federated signing would probably work or be acceptable to lots of people (especially if it was only restricted to transaction ordering)
09:41 < kanzure> as for validity, i guess snarks.
09:46 < kanzure> and that would be functionary signing of encrypted transactions probably...
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09:57 < r0ach> kanzure: you just described realsolid's new coin heh
10:10 < r0ach> I told him even though it's just federated ordering, people would probably shun any system with federated anything
10:11 < r0ach> you don't have much of an anti-fragile system if you have no reliable way to replace orderers when they get run over by a car
10:12 < sipa> the problem with federations isn't so much that they are controlled by a small number of people (that's no different from today.'s miners)... but that fedrrations are hard to keep anonymous :)
10:14 < r0ach> well, the system he coded up is basically the ideal system governments themselves would want.  It's just nobody in here wants to actually help central bankers design better systems...
10:17 < instagibbs> govts by no means necessarily would like a properly designed federated system
10:18 < r0ach> I made the statement assuming it was a govt that wanted monopoly on force, but not a nefarious govt that wanted neo-feudalism through usury
10:19 < r0ach> (I'm sure someone will say the monopoly on force part is also nefarious, but that's another story)
10:21 < othe> thats basically how hyperledger, chain, eris and all those "distributed ledgers" work
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14:41 < skyraider> hi.. it was recently suggested to me that in a system with a single node that stores a transaction ledger, proof-of-work could add security compared to merely creating a hash tree of the ledger's transactions. at first, this made little sense - PoW provides security guarantees in systems that require byzantine consensus. a single-node system obviously
14:41 < skyraider> requires no such consensus. however, it does seem that having some entity with a lot of computing power  dump it into creating PoWs over, say, several years, would require any attacker who cannot compromise the trust root of the cryptosystem to expend significant economic resources if she wants her fake PoW to look real. is this wildly off-base?
14:42 < skyraider> ("this" being the economic utility of PoW in the seemingly-totally-silly situation of a system with a single node)
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15:08 < maaku> skyraider: just have the single node sign its blocks
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15:09 < maaku> the attacker then requires an infeasible amount of compute poewr to break the key
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15:31 < kanzure> maaku: yees, agreed. basic crypto.....
15:31 < kanzure> computational infeasibility and such
15:35 < skyraider> maaku: yes, this was my initial response, i still can't see how adding PoW makes this ledger's immutability any better
15:39 < kanzure> you could do timestamped signed checkpoints of the state, and send that small signed statement to a bunch of different cheap off-site backups without using the blockchain
15:39 < skyraider> indeed, many people use HSM timestamping tools for this purpose
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15:40 < luke-jr> imo it would usually be worthless
15:43 < skyraider> i thought one could argue 'well let's assume the attacker can make you believe in a fake hash tree, by compromising your preimages. then using PoW and publishing the PoWs to many off-site backups would at least increase the cost of creating a real-looking fake ledger'. however, if you can compromise the preimages, you wouldn't do the PoW work - you'd have
15:43 < skyraider> people the ledger-owners are already paying to do PoW do the PoW work
15:44 < kanzure> if you are going to timestamp using proof-of-work, then you might as well use the bitcoin blockchain because it has the most PoW momentum compared to other uses of the same mining hardware
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15:46 < kanzure> skyraider: i think the concern is something like "try to prevetn the institution from showing different signed timestamped ledgers at the same time with different histories", so that only one can be shown at any given time. so this requires publication to some public timestamping oracle.
15:48 < kanzure> what was the precise problem, again?
15:50 < skyraider> kanzure: agree, that would made the hashtree approach viable. however, it would not increase the economic cost of producing a fake ledger, assuming the attacker is able to mutate the preimages (golden copy of the ledger). if the attacker is not able to mutate the preimages, there is certainly no point to PoW in this single-node system: hashes and/or digital
15:50 < skyraider> signatures provide immutability.
15:51 < skyraider> the precise problem is: assume an attacker can mutate the golden copy of a ledger at various points in time, but not all the time. how to increase the economic cost of producing a realistic-looking fake?
15:52 < instagibbs> skyraider, https://github.com/petertodd/uniquebits you get proof of publication
15:52 < instagibbs> identifiable checkpointing
15:53 < kanzure> skyrtaider: why are you assuming the private keys are compromised
15:53 < skyraider> original inspiration was: hashcash seemed to use PoW to increase the economic costs of spam. can one wedge PoW into increasing the economic costs of changing ledgers?
15:54 < skyraider> kanzure: good question, this was also my objection; however, commercial HSMs regularly have entropy leaks (at least according to recent vendor emails)
15:55 < skyraider> so.. no reason other than "seems to be possible for an APT to exploit some HSM zero-days with moderate effort, according to recent evidence"
15:55 < kanzure> well, multisig i guess.
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15:57 < kanzure> skyraider: you can make spam impossibly economically costly by using a crypto scheme where only those with a key can email you, and then it's impossible to forge email when it is unsolicited
15:58 < kanzure> (spam in email is a problem because you don't know the senders ahead of time)
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21:30 < bramc> Hey everybody
21:31 < bramc> So, uh, dumb question: Is it okay for me to use 4 byte pointers in the merkle set, or is that too small?
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23:24 < bramc> Since Peter Todd wrote a paean to the utility of utxo sets, I'm feeling time pressure to get my thing done already
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