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ZZZzzz…] 02:41 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:46 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:50 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@stjhnf0157w-142134218053.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nl.bellaliant.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53 -!- kmels [~kmels@190.106.223.147] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:13 -!- nuke_ [~nuke@176.92.219.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42 -!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xqbnlwoimmejwsar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:51 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@stjhnf0157w-142134218053.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nl.bellaliant.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:56 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@stjhnf0157w-142134218053.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nl.bellaliant.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:22 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:30 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@stjhnf0157w-142134218053.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nl.bellaliant.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:32 -!- btcdrak [uid164083@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wngblxnkmevqswuh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:32 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:35 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@stjhnf0157w-142134218053.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nl.bellaliant.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:38 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:42 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:46 -!- Joseph__ [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:b8e2:1c9c:fe32:8ba2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:48 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:54 < Taek> the problem with federations isn't so much that they are controlled by a small number of people (that's no different from today.'s miners)... but that fedrrations are hard to keep anonymous :) 04:54 < Taek> Another thing that I really like about POW is that it's easy for new parties to force their way in. Nobody can block access to a miner, the miner just needs hashrate 04:55 < Taek> though that's a sword which cuts both ways 04:57 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:05 -!- asoltys [~bitcoinco@23.94.96.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05 -!- asoltys [~bitcoinco@23.94.96.232] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:13 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:14 -!- adams__ [sid73416@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cghquapqzbmwshej] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15 -!- adams__ [sid73416@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqmxcuqicaqnxttg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15 -!- btcdrak [uid164083@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sdipuzmkbcpraree] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- Keefe [~Keefe@unaffiliated/keefe] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:17 < maaku> Taek: indeed, that's the sole purpose of proof of work :) 05:17 < maaku> to provide a dynamic signer set 05:17 -!- Keefe [~Keefe@unaffiliated/keefe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:18 < maaku> but it comes with huuuge costs, so you better really *need* dynamic signer sets for proof of work to make sense 05:21 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:22 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@189.221.47.214.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@189.221.47.214.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:24 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:29 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:31 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@stjhnf0157w-142134218053.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nl.bellaliant.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:35 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@189.221.47.214.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:36 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@stjhnf0157w-142134218053.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOp.nl.bellaliant.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:39 -!- nivah [~linker@210.245.34.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:41 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nayvncsfcvgswhjb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:43 -!- bit2017 [~linker@210.245.34.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:49 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@189.221.47.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:49 -!- bramc [634b58ce@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.75.88.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14 -!- stqism [~coup_de_s@freebsd/user/stqism] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gnu/social/robmyers] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15 -!- mappum [sid43795@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bjylxkroweemtwur] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15 -!- Tenhi [~tenhi@static-ip-69-64-50-196.inaddr.ip-pool.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:15 -!- retrohacker [uid34590@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-knnyafjxcjmrymwp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15 -!- mariorz [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hnpiqetivlcysolw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15 -!- zmanian__ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ltycmuyejoftetot] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16 -!- coup_de_shitlord [~coup_de_s@irc.tox.im] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:16 < waxwing> technically isn't it anonymous/permissionless as well as dynamic? you could come up with a dynamic/changing set of signers in a permissioned system (e.g one permissioned signer authorizes another) 06:16 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:16 -!- meZee [SwedFTP@unaffiliated/swedftp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17 -!- mappum [sid43795@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gpicrmhogmmroouy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:17 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gnu/social/robmyers] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:17 -!- nullfxn [~nullFxn@50-90-30-44.res.bhn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17 -!- zmanian__ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qinlbmlujcehuqzc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:18 -!- CryptoAi [sid28532@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lacxjtjfbvduokmp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:18 -!- mariorz [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rcmwttexvotvlkmi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:18 -!- retrohacker [uid34590@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-imbjgjyhiqsptrzj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:19 -!- nullfxn [~nullFxn@50-90-30-44.res.bhn.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:20 -!- kumavis [sid13576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cyijauusojjoyzvo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:20 -!- meZee [SwedFTP@unaffiliated/swedftp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:20 -!- jlyndon [sid10913@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nzdcmbffvpjvcnfq] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21 < Taek> also, it's expensive to rewrite history. It's conceivable to think of a dynamic membership system which features costless alternate histories. 06:21 -!- PsychoticBoy [sid27029@pdpc/supporter/active/psychoticboy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21 -!- eragmus [sid136308@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tjtfsgrltmqnappl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2607:ff48:aa81:800::a15f:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21 -!- smooth [~ubuntu@ec2-54-201-223-245.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:22 -!- CryptoAi [sid28532@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-toztvodtnxqvickn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 -!- Tenhi [~tenhi@static-ip-69-64-50-196.inaddr.ip-pool.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 -!- smooth [~ubuntu@ec2-54-201-223-245.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 -!- runeks [sid21167@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rfbbuyjbuficnyuj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:26 -!- binaryFate 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development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 06:32 -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Fri Oct 30 00:53:34 2015] 06:32 [Users #bitcoin-wizards] 06:32 [@ChanServ ] [ freekevin ] [ nba_btchip ] 06:32 [ [ace] ] [ gavinandresen ] [ neha ] 06:32 [ [d__d] ] [ ggreer ] [ nephyrin ] 06:32 [ [Derek] ] [ ghtdak ] [ nickler ] 06:32 [ _whitelogger ] [ gigq ] [ Nightw0lf ] 06:32 [ a5m0 ] [ Giszmo ] [ nivah ] 06:32 [ a7b9d6e6 ] [ gnusha ] [ Noice ] 06:32 [ aar- ] [ go1111111 ] [ nonaTure ] 06:32 [ AaronvanW ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ nsh ] 06:32 [ adam3us ] [ gribble ] [ null_rad- ] 06:32 [ adams__ ] [ Guest14615 ] [ nullfxn ] 06:32 [ adlai ] [ Guest35183 ] [ o3u ] 06:32 [ AdrianG ] [ Guest39551 ] [ optimator ] 06:32 [ aem ] [ gwillen ] [ othe ] 06:32 [ aj ] [ harrow ] [ otoburb ] 06:32 [ Alanius ] [ hashtag ] [ OxADADA ] 06:32 [ alexkuck___ ] [ HastaJun ] [ PaulCapestany ] 06:32 [ AlienTrooper ] [ helo ] [ paveljanik ] 06:32 [ alpalp ] [ henrytill ] [ petertodd ] 06:32 [ amiller ] [ humd1ng3r ] [ phantomcircuit ] 06:32 [ Anduck ] [ huseby ] [ pigeons ] 06:32 [ andytoshi ] [ ibrightly ] [ Piper-Off ] 06:32 [ artifexd ] [ iddo ] [ poggy_ ] 06:32 [ arubi ] [ Inaltoasinistra] [ PRab ] 06:32 [ asoltys ] [ infinite_ ] [ prosodyContexte] 06:32 [ aspect_ ] [ instagibbs ] [ PsychoticBoy ] 06:32 [ asynk ] [ Iriez ] [ qawap ] 06:32 [ azariah ] [ isis ] [ r0ach ] 06:32 [ bassguitarman ] [ Jaamg ] [ raedah ] 06:32 [ berndj ] [ jaromil ] [ rasengan ] 06:32 [ bertani_ ] [ jbenet ] [ RedEmerald_ ] 06:32 [ bildramer ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ retrohacker ] 06:32 [ binaryFate ] [ jessepollak ] [ roasbeef ] 06:32 [ binns ] [ jlyndon ] [ robmyers ] 06:32 [ bitjedi ] [ johntramp ] [ rubensayshi ] 06:32 [ blkdb ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ runeks ] 06:32 [ BlueMatt ] [ jouke ] [ rusty ] 06:32 [ BonyM ] [ jrayhawk ] [ ryan-c ] 06:32 [ BrainOverfl0w ] [ jron ] [ sdaftuar ] 06:32 [ brand0 ] [ jtremback_ ] [ shesek ] 06:32 [ 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warptangent ] 06:32 [ devrandom ] [ mappum ] [ warren ] 06:32 [ dgenr8 ] [ mariorz ] [ waxwing ] 06:32 [ digitalmagus ] [ markus-k ] [ whiteunicorn___] 06:32 [ dignork ] [ MaxSan_ ] [ windsok ] 06:32 [ DougieBot5000 ] [ Meeh ] [ wiz ] 06:32 [ droark ] [ metric ] [ wizkid057 ] 06:32 [ e0 ] [ meZee ] [ wpalczynski ] 06:32 [ e4xit ] [ mhanne ] [ wumpus ] 06:32 [ Eliel_ ] [ midnightmagic ] [ xaptah ] 06:32 [ Emcy ] [ mkarrer ] [ xeon-enouf ] 06:32 [ EmmyNoether ] [ morcos ] [ yang ] 06:32 [ epscy ] [ mountaingoat ] [ Ylbam ] 06:32 [ eragmus ] [ mr_burdell ] [ yoleaux ] 06:32 [ espes__ ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ yorick ] 06:32 [ Expanse ] [ Muis ] [ zmanian__ ] 06:32 [ face ] [ muuqwaul ] [ zwischenzug ] 06:32 [ fluffypony ] [ Myagui ] [ zxzzt ] 06:32 [ forrestv ] [ nanotube ] 06:32 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 242 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 241 normal] 06:32 -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Tue Feb 26 07:24:47 2013 06:32 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 17 secs 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#bitcoin-wizards 18:39 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@209.128.33.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:40 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:46 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:52 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:54 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:58 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@c-50-159-126-21.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:58 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-255-211.dyn.295.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:59 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:04 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:06 -!- jtimon [~quassel@253.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:07 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:08 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:08 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:16 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:21 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27 < bsm117532> PoW has another use: it bootstraps value into an otherwise valueless system. I conjecture that without a federation to maintain a peg to external value, or PoW, any system (such as PoS) could never rise in value above the noise of people buying and selling shit just for shits. Without one of the two, it's just a database, and a row in a database isn't worth anything, no matter how it's signed... 19:29 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@209.128.33.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:34 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:35 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36 < othe> maybe in a monetary system but there are really good use cases for distributed ledgers with immutable records 19:39 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@209.128.33.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:40 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@209.128.33.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:42 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:46 < bsm117532> It's only immutable to the cost of mutating it. PoS or any version of hash-chains can be created at near-zero cost. The attack is not to reverse recorded data, but to create uncertainty by creating many versions of the truth. 19:47 < othe> thats not really an issue if companies run federated nodes imho, they can trust their own data and discard everything that disagrees 19:48 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:48 -!- Sosumi [~Leon@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:52 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ecwuluqyiuwaduog] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:57 -!- Pasha [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:58 -!- Pasha [~C@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [K-Lined] 20:01 < bsm117532> Note above I said a federation also solves this -- in the case of data immutability by not allowing arbitrary outside input. 20:02 < bsm117532> It's PoS I'm trashing here... 20:02 < othe> good, go on :P 20:02 < bsm117532> Not that I'm a fan of federations... :-P 20:02 -!- mdavid613 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