--- Log opened Wed May 25 00:00:11 2016
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02:04 < bsm117532> I've been thinking a lot today about what I've previously called the "external majority problem" in mining.  That is, if you choose an algorithm that can be computed profitably on commodity hardware, one must consider the external majority of hardware out there *not* currently being used to mine your coin.
02:05 < bsm117532> The only seriously memory-hard algorithm in use today is ethash being used by Ethereum.  But if there was two, miners would bounce between them, just as multipool miners jumped between pools and coins that used the same algorithms, and successfully pulled off 51% attacks at times.
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02:05 < bsm117532> Since Ethereum is currently sucking up the GPU's people are willing to allocate to mining a crypto-coin, the appearance of a new coin using *any* memory-hard algorithm will cause a bouncing between the two, and destroy the security of both coins.
02:06 < bsm117532> agree/disagree?
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02:11 < fluffypony> bsm117532: the appearance of a new *potentially profitable* coin
02:12 < bsm117532> I don't doubt the appearance of such...do you?
02:12 < fluffypony> probably needs a bigger hook than just a memory hard PoW, the days of that one-trick-pony (if you'll mind the pun) are gone
02:12 < bsm117532> agreed.
02:12 < fluffypony> I don't doubt that miners are capitalists and will switch to something else if it's more profitable
02:12 < bsm117532> And when there are 2 or more coins, that presents a 51% problem.
02:12 < fluffypony> there are multi-pools specifically for that and they're very popular, from what I've observed
02:13 < fluffypony> well there's an element of altruistic mining, although it's likely a small one
02:13 < fluffypony> Dogecoin had lots of altruistic miners
02:13 < bsm117532> I don't know the right solution to this.  All I'm saying is that anti-ASIC via memory-hard is deeply flawed, but currently working because of the lack of competitors.
02:14 < fluffypony> well there are trade-offs everywhere
02:14 < fluffypony> ASICs have lead to massive clustering, which is just as bad, if not worse
02:14 < bsm117532> I see only two options here...ASICs and memory-hard.  Therefore, only room for two coins which are 51% attack resistant.
02:15 < pigeons> memory-hard meaning high amount of memory, or high memory bandwidth usage like cuckoo
02:15 < bsm117532> On the ASIC side, at least you have the one-ASIC-per-algorithm benefit, which separates them.
02:15 < fluffypony> pigeons: either would accomplish the same "anti-ASIC" purpose
02:15 < fluffypony> for want of a better term
02:15 < bsm117532> pigeons: I'm referring to current ethash.  High-bandwidth would be a third category, I would say...
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02:16 < bsm117532> of course, there's a middle ground of FPGAs, which are still profitable, regardless of your algorithm, while the ASICs are being taped out...
02:16 < fluffypony> are we talking long-term or short-term here?
02:17 < bsm117532> I'm thinking long-term.  google gives me the short term answers...
02:18 < fluffypony> my intuition is that an ASIC-resistant algorithm will only work if you can incentivise a base group of miners that will mine almost regardless of what new scamcoin comes out
02:20 < bsm117532> I've come to look at mining as (additionally) a means to couple real-world assets into a crypto-ledger.  Perhaps the answer lies not in PoW but in some other means of proof-of-real-world-burn. That seems hard to come by in any other way than what is discussed above, though.  :-/
02:20 < pigeons> how reistant is resistant? we dont know if asic-resistant exists depending on your definition of resistant. Ethereum doesn't think they can prevent asics, thats why they have the difficulty bomb and the proof of stake betting proposal
02:20 < fluffypony> pigeons: resistant != proof
02:21 < fluffypony> just make it difficult enough that it's probably never going to be financially viable
02:21 < pigeons> as others have pointed out for years even a small advantage in energy use could make asics profitable long term
02:21 < bsm117532> PoW is destruction of an asset in one realm (electricity) to gain an asset in the crypto-realm.  PoS and other ideas can't claim that.  It's proof-of-burn in meat-space.
02:22 < pigeons> for something that is only a little more efficeient than cots
02:22 < bsm117532> pigeons: Ethereum's PoS proposal is a bad joke.
02:22 < bsm117532> If they go with their PoS they will implode.
02:23 < pigeons> yes they can't use this proposal, but from the begining they were sure to loudly say they are going to switch to proof of stake so dont develop an asic
02:24 < bsm117532> Here's another argument: any PoS system can never attain a value larger than the total value of the system itself.  Profit maximization will work with many small participants seeking a larger piece of the pie, but once one's real-world assets outweigh one's PoS assets, this argument dies.
02:24 < pigeons> i guess you can watch zerocash which is using equihash and see if it gets interesting enough for someone to make an asic
02:24 < bsm117532> I don't give a shit what they say, give me an algorithm that works.
02:24 < bsm117532> When Casper comes out, I'm going to make 10,000  4-month long forks and have a field day watching them try to figure out which one is the right one.
02:25 < bsm117532> Never mind what happens in the first 4 months and the corruption and centralization that implies...
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02:26 < pigeons> i think they would do what all the chains do when this happens. bless a chain and add "checkpointing"
02:26 < bsm117532> pigeons: I'm a big fan of Zcash, I've talked to zokoo about this, but I don't have a better proposal, I'm afraid.
02:26 < bsm117532> Welcome to your central coin, comrade.
02:27 < bsm117532> Perhaps, this is how Ethereum dies.
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02:28 < pigeons> no, no one who uses it will care. it will still be Such DAO
02:28 < bsm117532> I'm quite sure the work they're doing with smart contracts will be moved to the next available system though...
02:28 < fluffypony> uh
02:28 < fluffypony> they can already nuke bad chains remotely
02:28 < bsm117532> fluffypony: please elaborate?
02:29 < fluffypony> https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Bad-Chain-Canary
02:29 < bsm117532> And cryptographic proof of fraud is provided how?
02:29 < bsm117532> Looks eminently scammable to me.
02:29 < fluffypony> https://github.com/ethereum/libethereum/blob/3bddce831c7f3e8e7f38a3b9b5df8ea0ced324fb/libethashseal/Ethash.cpp#L279
02:30 < bsm117532> So it's already a centralized chain...I assume all existing  Eth implementations check this canary address?
02:30 < bsm117532> I can't see how this is better than Peercoin signing blocks/
02:31 < fluffypony> it's an opt-out mechanism, from what I understand
02:31 < fluffypony> but of course nobody opts out
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02:32 < fluffypony> I personally don't have an issue of checkpointing when a cryptocurrency is young and the dynamics are still being established, but there has to be an aim and a desire to move away from that, not to move towards new systems that require even more checkpointing
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02:32 < fluffypony> s/of checkpointing/with checkpointing
02:33 < bsm117532> fluffypony: I'm with you.  Also, I'm sad.
02:33 < bsm117532> Ethereum has done some good things and I don't want to see it die because of some misplaced fantasies.
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02:50 < bsm117532> So I figured out this weekend the optimal strategy for a coin which allows multiple parents (braid) per block. Turns out you can calculate the optimal difficulty given the hash rate and orphan rate.  With multiple parents you reach a point were blocks are produced way faster than a UTXO set consensus can be achieved (aka cohort), because there can be multiple blocks in-flight containing the same transaction.
02:51 < bsm117532> *where
02:52 < bsm117532> Using data from Ethereum, with their 7-8% uncle rate, this is about 6s per block (cohort).  Given the latencies of nodes operating on that network, this is a bead (block) time of around 1-2 seconds.  A lot of people are using Tor, it seems...this should be a factor of 5 better, or so...
02:54 < bsm117532> I'm pretty surprised that there's a function that predicts the *optimal* bead time, with only one data point.  I've had a 3-difficulty rolling algorithm in my head for a while now...
02:55 < bsm117532> The fundamental limit on the speed of the network is the size of the network, which is *measured* by the timestamps of beads published by miners.
02:58 < bsm117532> In the above, "optimal" means "fastest" means take the first derivative and find the fastest block/bead time, which I can now calculate.
03:01 < bsm117532> Given that a cohort contains multiple beads (at fixed difficulty), and Satoshi's analysis is still valid, this results in a 6-12 second confirmation time for transactions.
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03:02 < bsm117532> e.g. waiting for 2 cohorts is (on average) going to contain 8 beads at fixed difficulty, and will take ~10s...we've satisfied Satoshi's criterion given an attacker with < 50% hashpower.
03:03 < bsm117532> IRC says I'm talking to 246 people, but most of them are NSA agents or competitors...stealing my ideas...but I digress...
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05:31 < some-guy> is anyone here?
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05:36 < rusty> some-guy: no
05:42 < some-guy> so I came here hoping to have a question answered? I'd like to know how a bitcoin is stored once the nonce is found?
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05:58 < waxwing> some-guy: please use #bitcoin
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14:06 < nsh> anyone savvy on this linux foundation hyperledger thingumy?
14:07 < nsh> or bluemix, some IBM cloudy mcnonsense
14:07 < nsh> i'm told these are relevant to my interests in ways i am yet to determine
14:08 < othe> i looked into it, not sure if savy
14:09 < nsh> blockstream has contributed codebase, if i'm reading this right - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XECRVN9hXGrjAjysrnuNSdggzAKYm6XESR6KmABwhkE/edit
14:10 < MaxSan_> They have yes
14:10 < othe> yeah its a mix of various things, some do not make sense for me... what are u searching for?
14:10 < othe> there are alernatives
14:10 < nsh> well, someone has a blockchain technology pitch involving both, and i'm having a call with him in 50m. just wondering what i ought to know going into the conversation
14:11 < othe> whats "both" ?
14:11 < othe> bluemix is just.... a hoster
14:11 < othe> like amazon aws or whatever
14:11 < othe> or azure
14:12  * nsh nods
14:13 < nsh> this slide is hard to fathom: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/185C9JUICwJQFnf6vH2nOEBNATAVG1XBVY-e-EV6oRSQ/edit#slide=id.g10e8c38c54_0_6
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14:13 < nsh> oh, OBC is openblockchain
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14:18 < nsh> 'Digital Asset has also started working on a prototype implementation of the Practical Byzantine Fault Tolerance consensus module as a replacement for Proof of Work. We are collaborating with many of the other members of the project on the consensus module to ensure there is a scalable, secure, Byzantine Fault Tolerant consensus protocol that can provide settlement finality for wholesale financial i
14:18 < nsh> nstitutions.'
14:18  * nsh frowns
14:20 < nsh> 'A node is started with a configuration of an ordered list containing all the nodes (including itself) that make up the pool. A node is defined at a minimum by public key and network endpoint for message sending. One node is defined as the primary, the rest are replicas.'
14:21 < nsh> decentralised and trust-free is not really compatible with everyone agreeing to trust a central authority, even if it rotates :/
14:21  * othe nods
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15:18 < instagibbs> maaku, jl2012 convinced me the n-way lightning thing, but it's O(n^2) complexity as channel updates :(
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15:22 < jl2012> in a 2-way channel it's O(1) per update or O(n) in channel lifetime; in a 3-way channel it's O(n) per update or O(n^2) in lifetime
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15:23 < instagibbs> 3+ way as well, but multiplicative effects and RTT probably get bad too
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15:25 < jl2012> O(n) per update sounds not acceptable for high frequency trading. That will force people to close the channel
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15:37 < instagibbs> jl2012 brought up a good point that it seems duplex micropayment channels generalize in a much more straight forward way
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15:40 < jl2012> http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf
15:42 < jl2012> in the duplex channel, no matter how many parties are involved, the update is always O(1)
15:42 < instagibbs> in terms of n == channel age, of course...
15:43 < jl2012> I think the lightning 2-way channel requires O(n) storage for all the keys?
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15:49 < instagibbs> I think not: https://github.com/rustyrussell/ccan/blob/master/ccan/crypto/shachain/design.txt (if I'm wrong someone let me know)
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16:02 < maaku> instagibbs: O(n^2) would be news to me. i was thinking O(n!)
16:02 < maaku> but yeah either way it gets too big too fast
16:03 < instagibbs> n is referring to history length, not number of parties, there is also that direction of complexity
16:03 < maaku> ah
16:03 < instagibbs> so yeah...
16:03 < instagibbs> it gets worse in two bad directions
16:05 < maaku> nsh: Blockstream contributed sidechains alpha codebase
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16:05 < nsh> ah, ty
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16:08 < instagibbs> fluffypony, eth just a few days ago took out the mining canaries, saying they "forgot" to take them out
16:08 < instagibbs> fwiw
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19:00 < fluffypony> instagibbs: I guess they saw theymos moaning about it
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--- Log closed Thu May 26 00:00:12 2016