--- Log opened Sun May 29 00:00:14 2016
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00:32 < fluffypony> nsh: I take it we would read the paper(s) before the hangout?
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01:23 < da2ce7> hello all :)
01:26 < da2ce7> A bitcoin-history question: What was the original behavour of the Satoshi client for dealing with replacement transctions. Was the first clients first-seen-safe?
01:31 < phantomcircuit> da2ce7, blindly replace by sequence number i believe
01:31 < phantomcircuit> which was only disabled because it was a trivial denial of service issue
01:31 < da2ce7> without the sequence number feild set it was first-seen-safe?
01:32 < phantomcircuit> i really don't like calling anything that's relying on unconfirmed transactions safe
01:32 < phantomcircuit> since they're the exact opposie
01:32 < phantomcircuit> opposite*
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01:34 < da2ce7> I completely agree. I'm wondering what the behavour was, whatever you call it.
01:35 < da2ce7> I suppose it just ignored replacement transcations without a sequence number
01:35 < phantomcircuit> da2ce7, i believe the mempool logic rigidly followed the sequence number
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01:36 < da2ce7> cool; thankyou. :)
01:36  * da2ce7 goes into the git time-mashine.
01:37 < da2ce7> *machine
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02:05 < nsh> fluffypony, yeah, decided in advance
02:06 < nsh> maybe more than one paper per session depending on length/difficulty
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02:22 < fluffypony> nsh: awesome - I'm so in
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02:24 < nsh> okay, grand. i'll write a thing and make a place for suggestions for papers to cover and most accessible time to have the hangout (unless we find a better forum)
02:25 < fluffypony> Mumble might be an option, low bandwidth requirements and its audio only
02:37 < smooth> bsm117532: there is a lot of history with many alts that people use pools regardless of just about anything
02:37 < smooth> you could get a block an hour, people still use pools
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03:52 < nsh> .title https://docs.google.com/document/d/10kTyCmGPhvZy94F7VWyS-dQ4lsBacR2dUgGTtV98C40/edit#
03:52 < yoleaux> A Call for a Temporary Moratorium on “The DAO” - Google Docs
03:52 < EmmyNoether> A Call for a Temporary Moratorium on “The DAO” - Google Docs
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03:52 < nsh> (argues broken incentive/voting mechanisms)
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08:16 < kanzure> "NIZKs with an untrusted CRS: Security in the face of parameter subversion" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/372.pdf
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08:20  * nsh frowns
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08:23 < kanzure> "‘Quasilinear-size zero knowledge from linear-algebraic PCPs" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/021.pdf
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09:10 < nsh> .to zooko thoughts on this? http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/372.pdf
09:10 < yoleaux> nsh: I'll pass your message to zooko.
09:11 < zooko> nsh: I don't understand it very well. I know that Zcash scientists are working on proof systems
09:11 < yoleaux> 16:10Z <nsh> zooko: thoughts on this? http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/372.pdf
09:11 < zooko> without subvertible CRSes.
09:11 < kanzure> "The unreasonable effectiveness of address clustering" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1605.06369.pdf
09:11 < nsh> zooko, anything i can look at?
09:12 < nsh> i think this paper is just defining known results a little more auti^Wclearly
09:12 < zooko> The other ref kanzure posted above is the latest result from Zcash scientists AFAIK.
09:12 < zooko> It's possible they've done more and I don't know about it. ☺
09:13 < zooko> http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/021.pdf
09:13 < nsh> cool. thanks!
09:13 < zooko> I also don't understand that one very deeply.
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09:18 < kanzure> "Extractable witness encryption and timed-release encryption from bitcoin" https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Extractable-Witness-Encryption-and-Timed-release-Liu-Kakvi/e4d287fb4672bfbbe7bf438df3e1f8aa97c8edb1
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09:26 < kanzure> "Analysis of the blockchain protocol in asynchronous networks" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/454.pdf
09:30 < bsm117532> smooth: Do you understand this dynamic of people using pools?  Is it psychology or something? Because if you make a block an hour, variance is not an argument to use a pool.
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09:39 < nsh> amiller, are you the Miller that the authors of this extractable witness encryption and timed-release encrpytion from bitcoin paper mention having a discussion with? the references seem to have been cut from the preprint
09:39 < nsh> oh no, i misread. they only refer to discussion in a public chatroom (likely here)
09:39 < amiller> nsh, yes
09:39 < nsh> have you considered the paper? looks interesting
09:40 < nsh> i need to understand how extractable witness encryption works first though i guess
09:41 < amiller> i think its really interesting :)
09:41 < amiller> it's heavyweight crypto
09:42  * nsh nods
09:45 < maaku_> bsm117532: not everyone is double-digit percentages of the network
09:46  * nsh wonders why a witness must be a certain length 
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09:56 < nsh> 'Security: If ∃w such that C(w) = 1 then Enc(C,0) ~=c Enc(C,1)  (where ~=c means "computationally indistinguishable").' -- http://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~sanjamg/classes/cs276-fall14/scribe/lec18.pdf
09:56 < nsh> it's clear what this means, but i wonder if we should have a distinct existential operator for existing-and-being-known
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10:28 < bsm117532> maaku_: That's why I brought up the numbers for Ethereum...because the pool-usage doesn't seem to be drastically different despite a 40x decrease in block time, and corresponding decrease in variance.  My hypothesis thus far was that pool usage was primarily due to variance reduction.  I'm clearly wrong...
10:29 < othe> no you aren´t, it´s a mix of variance, comfort, lazyness and bad tooling
10:30 < bsm117532> othe: I do think the slick UI's of pools I've seen are a contributor, as well as the ease of running cgminer vs. setting up a node.
10:31 < othe> yeah and there was no open src pool software
10:31 < waxwing> wouldn't pools be appealing due to orphan rates too? my gut feeling was that mining would become very centralized with fast block times due to costs of latency.
10:31  * waxwing has never been a miner...
10:31 < othe> so naturally they all hang on one pool and are too lazy to switch
10:32 < bsm117532> Well...I can fix that waxwing... and it's not as bad on Ethereum as bitcoin due to their uncle treatment.
10:32 < bsm117532> I admit to looking at pool lists for who had the lowest uncle rate...
10:32 < waxwing> yes uncles i accept ameliorates, but i would suspect not enough
10:32 < waxwing> with such extreme latency-sensitive mining
10:33 < bsm117532> The latency sensitivity is a timing assumption and a design flaw, that can be removed.
10:33 < waxwing> you can make latency irrelevant? wow :)
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10:35 < bsm117532> Yes.  Make the block rewar something that is evaluated N blocks later, rather than causing a race.
10:35 < waxwing> ah, i see. sounds cool. have a vague feeling i heard about it before.
10:35 < bsm117532> Been working on it for a while...damn day job...
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10:48 < nsh> one day ivy league university dns servers will stop shouting at irc
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12:02 < midnightmagic> Implementation flaws in a specific alt-currency or pools thereof, or whose developers viciously attack other devs, is a non-theoretical (antagonistic) short-term development topic. :-/
12:03 < bsm117532> midnightmagic: Finding a way to prevent pooling is not, however...
12:03 < bsm117532> Would love to hear ideas...
12:05 < nsh> notion: enforcing randomised and shifting coalitions is tantamount to preventing static, socially or geographically bound coalitions
12:06 < nsh> conjecture: pooling can be prevented by requiring people to pool randomly at small levels in a manner that is tied to pseduo-identity value
12:07 < bsm117532> nsh: And now we're walking a fine line back to PBFT.
12:07 < bsm117532> Node self-identification can't be enforced, except by centralized power.
12:07 < nsh> well, wanting to retain your ability to spend your coin can be enforced
12:07 < nsh> or motivated
12:07 < nsh> or we can rely on extrinsic motivation thereto
12:08 < bsm117532> I believe that's called "proof of stake"...
12:08  * nsh nods
12:09 < nsh> but has anyone considered a stake-tied requirement to cooperate with random partners on the network?
12:09 < nsh> or are you suggesting it'll be difficult to enforce for the same reasons that most PoS models fall down
12:09 < bsm117532> nsh: Yes I'm suggesting the latter.
12:10 < nsh> (the block reward mechanism itself is roughly a stake-tied requirement to cooperate with a random partner on the network)
12:10 < nsh> it's just that it applies to everyone that sees a valid block at once
12:10 < nsh> if we can make it apply to uniformly selected small subsets of nodes continuously then maybe it's useful
12:10 < nsh> but that could just be another way of talking about braids; i don't know
12:10 < midnightmagic> an extension of p2pool sharechains, with more-correct, fractional coinbase payouts and specified- or un-specified membership therein is probably the only way for PoW-like security. anti-withholding mechs wouldn't work so well on decentralized pools. plus none of this is meaningful without commoditized mass-availability of smart-property mining devices and an ejection of established
12:11 < midnightmagic> oligarchical fraud-derived mining conglomerates.
12:11  * nsh nods
12:11 < bsm117532> Bitcoin is open and PBFT is closed precisely because nodes need not self-identify.  I also worry that one is walking a line between a 33% security guarantee (PBFT) and a 51% security guarantee (Nakamoto) by mixing the two.
12:12 < midnightmagic> PoS obviates the risk equation. there could be no calculation of work-required to revert all of established history.
12:12 < nsh> considering the asymptotic nonfundibility of bitcoin hashpower, there maybe 'plenty of room' between 33% and 51%
12:12 < nsh> *fungibility
12:12 < nsh> that's probably not the best phrasing. i mean it gets progressively wider a gap
12:12 < nsh> assuming that miners continue to represent the extreme of energy-efficient hashing
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12:19 < bsm117532> The problem is how do you cryptographically prove *anything* about miners.  All we have at present is the hash values they provide, and the timestamps they include.
12:20 < bsm117532> One thing that has been floating in my head...one can use commitments of Sequential Proofs of Work to measure inter-node latency.  One can then include consensus rules that dis-incentivize miner aggregation.
12:21 < waxwing> as someone once said, identity is not the solution, it's the problem ;)
12:21 < bsm117532> I've been fooling with incentive models that incentivize low-latencies.  But this also incentivizes pooling, and not using Tor/I2P or other anonymizing relay networks.
12:22 < bsm117532> With enough data (and cryptographic commitments thereto -- such as SPoW) one could create an incentivization model that places miners equi-distributed on the surface of the Earth.
12:23 < bsm117532> But...that creates some bizarre incentives like putting mining nodes in the middle of the Pacific.
12:23  * bsm117532 prefers data over identity.
12:24 < bsm117532> Anyone have any other ideas of kinds of data that could be cryptographically obtained about miners?
12:24 < katu> bsm117532: are commitments even needed for this? one thing you can do is force cluster assignments in a NUMS fashion (introduce random cluster bias)
12:24 < katu> so the more "sybils" (for lack of better term) somebody has are forced to spread out and not form cliques
12:24 < bsm117532> katu: can you elaborate?  I'm not familiar with NUMS.  You probably need commitments because otherwise the measurements will be gamed.
12:25 < katu> how can you game rtt?
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12:27 < katu> bsm117532: as for NUMS clustering assignments, see TorCoin. They use central consensus for this, but its possible to go without it if privacy of assignments is not necessary
12:32 < kanzure> waxwing: identity is definitely a problem, but also i think our whole architecture here is pretty broken (i mean, nobody really thinks that a system with 7 billion attesters would be stable - people will drop off or act maliciously or whatever).. more philosophically, there's not too many good reasons to have transactions at all, it's more like a routing/planning error the more you have to send additional transactions.
12:33 < waxwing> kanzure: i'm a bit lost - no good reasons to have transactions? what else would we have? :)
12:33 < nsh> nums is just "nothing up my sleeves" - a mechanism to get a stream of entropy that we can be assured isn't biased to benefit anybody
12:34 < kanzure> waxwing: well, i'm assuming a system without people. i think people complicate things, and that's why we haven't figured out a suitable decentralization implementation.
12:34 < kanzure> waxwing: and without people, i think you can forego transactions (probably)
12:34 < waxwing> the zen of bitcoin :)
12:34  * nsh smiles
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12:36 < kanzure> if you (poorly!) define decentralization as number of people that are attesting to state/validity/ordering, then you end up with 7 billion people signing every block (which will have super high latency and due to downtime no blocks would ever get signed at all)
12:36 < kanzure> *due to individual node downtime
12:36 < kanzure> not to mention sybil problems with picking "7 billion" or other collusion/cartel/coercion problems..
12:37 < nsh> i suppose you can go inductively from it being pretty impossible with infinity people, to largely manageable with 1 person, to absolutely ideal with 0 people
12:37 < kanzure> 0 people is the trustless setup SNARKs case, right?
12:38 < nsh> also this generalises to a surprisingly broad range of problems
12:38 < c0rw1n> hmm then one could imagine crypto-signing of all the data from absolutely total surveillance, to see who even tried to collude/cartelize/coerce
12:38 < nsh> surewhynot
12:39 < kanzure> if you assume total surveillance then i think a bunch of other things break.  presumably all collusion is private.
12:41 < kanzure> maintaining a file that defines your trust lines is an interesting strategy but i think nobody proposed a way to do consensus off of that, i think you just end up with lots of pockets of distrust and history incompatibility which is contrary to the purpose of a universal ledger
12:42 < c0rw1n> hmm could cluster the ledgers by compatibility
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12:44 < c0rw1n> ( i've had a huge idea that that is a part of but it's totally not -wizards material and it needs to be written up properly some day )
12:45 < bsm117532> kanzure: (and everyone) remove the word "trust" from the conversation, and see where it leads.  In my experience, "trust" is a word that is usually used as a proxy for a different concept, that can be measured in a different way.
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12:46 < kanzure> no i was talking about "trust lines" the concept
12:46 < bsm117532> e.g. trust = default risk?  willing to not validate data?  etc.
12:46 < kanzure> or er, maybe the implementation
12:46 < kanzure> no, the thing called "trust lines"
12:46 < bsm117532> kanzure: You'll have to be more specific, I don't know what that means... ;-)
12:46 < kanzure> it's from ripple :(
12:46 < c0rw1n> Riple ?
12:46 < c0rw1n> yeah.
12:46 < c0rw1n> the good idea that god fucked all ways to hell
12:46 < c0rw1n> *got
12:48 < bsm117532> Eh...Ripple just moves default risk to "gateways".  Their concept of "trust" is a proxy for "default risk of gateways".  Now tell me who is auditing them for that purpose and I'll tell you what I think of Ripple.
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13:09 < belcher> bsm117532 could it be simply that the setup is easier for pools, you just point your mining software to the pool and go, with something like p2pool or solo you need to sync your own node
13:10 < bsm117532> belcher: that's most definitely a factor.
13:10 < kanzure> if that was true then someone would have tried that silly "validationless mining" stuff by now
13:11 < belcher> iv found my joinmarket has less adoption than lending btc for margin on the bitfinex exchange, partly because its easier and partly because the advertising is less
13:11 < belcher> the returns are similar, less for joinmarket on a risk-adjusted basis
13:11 < belcher> err, more*
13:12 < bsm117532> belcher: I bet if JoinMarket was simply called an "exchange", you'd double your usage.
13:13 < belcher> maybe build a GUI yield generator with a fancy new name
13:14 < bsm117532> Slick UI + "make money fast" = lots of users.
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14:47 < zooko> nsh: I think that distinction betweens kinds of "exists" is potentially an important problem in cryptography theory.
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14:58  * nsh nods
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16:10 < btcdrak> a
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16:12 < fluffypony> btcdrak: b
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