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05:17 < instagibbs> LOL
05:17 < instagibbs> why is the bridge 2 way? It's not supposed to be? btcdrak ?
05:18 < slackircbridge1> <instagibbs> test
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05:19 < instagibbs> guess it's not now nvm
05:20 < btcdrak> someone needs to +q the slackircbridge1 user
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08:05 < helo> be care with those smart contracts, folks ;)
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08:13 < jaromil> or maybe not, just have fun with it? I guess ethereum now can be considered a testnet
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08:19 < JackH> how did it ever get to 160 million dollars?
08:20 < JackH> that alone is INSANE, for non audited code just dumped in a chain that has very little auditing itself to begin with
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08:22 < kanzure> wrong channel, JackH
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08:24 < JackH> yeah I know....
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08:49 < kanzure> http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/16/scanning-live-ethereum-contracts-for-bugs/
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08:57 < Taek> kanzure: can you put all the links about the DAO vulnerability into a single folder?
08:57 < JackH> actually this is a bit relevant for Bitcoin, if anything, we can see the social side at play if they do a HF
08:58 < Taek> or at least give them a single tag. This stuff has a ton of educational value
08:58 < JackH> and if I am not wrong, SegWit + MAST will allow some smart contract possibilities
08:58 < kanzure> Taek: i wasn't going to bother tracking these.
08:59 < Taek> it's both a good example of playing with fire and how not to design a script system
08:59 < kanzure> Taek: i sort of assumed someone else would be keeping a timeline of links but now that i say it outloud i realize that's completely unlikely.
09:00 < JackH> you know we all look to you for links and files and pdf's kanzure
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09:00 < kanzure> JackH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekP0LQEsUh0
09:01 < JackH> LOL
09:02 < JackH> if you dont agree, make a DAO replacement ;)
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09:09 < jaromil> very little auditing? nono, its "televised auditing" https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/r-issues-buterin-s-ethereum-platform-review-papers-opportunities-and-challenges-for-private-and-consortium-blockchains-1465943849
09:10 < jaromil> this is from 3 days ago, but has been going on for 1-2 years now
09:10 < jaromil> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/ing-bank-participates-in-r-s-comparative-test-of-distributed-ledgers-and-cloud-platforms-1457543723
09:11 < katu_> "bank" and "cloud" sound scary in same sentence
09:11 < jaromil> and there is a list of world class banks on the bandwagon, here it is, scroll down and read where the endorsements come from http://r3cev.com/press/2016/1/20/r3-brings-eleven-major-global-financial-institutions-together-on-a-cloud-based-distributed-ledger
09:11 < katu_> especially with weak paxos "blockchains" like HL
09:13 < jaromil> anyway its at least good that ethereum shielded Bitcoin short - mid and long term development from the hyped up banksters on ecstasy
09:13 < katu_> ?
09:13 < katu_> please keep it to tech in here :)
09:13 < jaromil> yep sry
09:14 < jaromil> let it be a warning against hype on tech, when it comes to audit better leave the shills out of the door
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09:22 < Taek> https://blog.slock.it/deja-vu-dao-smart-contracts-audit-results-d26bc088e32e#.cd6f0x2cy
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09:23 < Taek> This makes me question the value of security audits generally with regards to cryptocurrency
09:23 < Taek> I suppose it's a bit like getting a security audit of your custom hashing function
09:24 < othe> damn hard to audit something like this without auditing the whole ethereum trainwreck
09:24 < fluffypony> except they DID audit Ethereum, othe
09:24 < fluffypony> same company
09:24 < othe> which ethereum?
09:24 < othe> the go one, the python one, the rust one, or the c++ one?
09:24 < fluffypony> http://www.dejavusecurity.com/blog/2015/7/23/deja-vu-security-assists-in-ethereum-release
09:24 < fluffypony> http://static1.squarespace.com/static/53168f6ce4b0ee73efea0c2a/t/55b69280e4b0c62a632f5508/1438028416636/CaseStudyEthereum1_BlogDecorations.pdf
09:25 < fluffypony> looks like the Go one ony
09:25 < fluffypony> *only
09:25 < othe> not surprised, also not surprised they didn´t find everything
09:26 < fluffypony> to speak to your point, Taek, security audits in cryptocurrency are mostly a marketing exercise
09:27 < othe> would have to be ongoing anyway, or its kinda pointless
09:28 < katu_> unless the implementation is formally verifiable to a spec which itself can be proven
09:28 < katu_> to be fair, bitcoin has neither too
09:28 < katu_> i wonder if theres some academic research to that goal though, kanzure ? :)
09:32 < JackH> lol
09:33 < Taek> There are parts of Bitcoin which have been formally verified, at least to simplified assumptions
09:33 < Taek> for example, I'm pretty sure that sipa did some formal verification to prove that certain types of errors did not exist in libsecp256k1
09:34 < Taek> which is not fully equivalent to proving there are no bugs at all in libsecp256k1, but it shows that the tools exist, are being used, and in the future their use will probably become easier and more ubiquitious
09:34 < katu_> Taek: thats only algorithms in secp256k1, C implementation is pretty much impossible to model check
09:35 < gmaxwell> katu_: thats not true, on either point.
09:36 < gmaxwell> We formally verified some aspects of the C code used in the field arithemetic using frama C, and using formalizations of C  (frama c, or the compcert COQ embedding) it's possible to check much more, though we haven't because it's a lot of difficult specialized work that none of the people working on it are experts in.
09:37 < bsm117532> This is one thing that annoys me about Ethereum.  For smart contracts you *really* want formal verification.  They instead went with an opaque bytecode and multiple front-end languages... :-/
09:37 < bsm117532> I'd have gone with Prolog or ML...
09:38 < katu_> gmaxwell: neat, so limited subset of C on reduced domains. thats pretty impressive. still, incomplete model :/
09:39 < katu_> bsm117532: agreed :(
09:39 < gmaxwell> katu_: the limited subset is the whole of the language we use.
09:40 < gmaxwell> (the formalizations don't support a few things, but those are things we don't use; (well when we started, compcert didn't do long long, but I'm pretty sure it does now))
09:40 < katu_> gmaxwell: im more surprised about the asm part correctness
09:40 < katu_> that theres tooling for that these days
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10:12 < jaromil> the problem is not cryptographical, but semantical / linguistic
10:13 < jaromil> there are limits to perfection which set me off from thinking there should really be a crypto-currency written in Coq
10:13 < jaromil> but at least some more literacy in implementing an actual language grammar should be there
10:14 < jaromil> and at the very least, contracts should be written in a language that is as functional, non-imperative and stateless as possible
10:14 < jaromil> IMHO
10:15 < jaromil> (anyway really to check Coq, interesting concept https://coq.inria.fr
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10:53 < nicolag> What prevents a miner to not accept a transaction of mine?
10:54 < gmaxwell> Nothing.
10:54 < gmaxwell> Hopefully you paid enough fee to make it attractive, and that that was enough.
10:55 < gmaxwell> and hopefully you preserved your privacy well enough that they can't tell your transaction apart from any other.
10:56 < nicolag> thanks gmaxwell
10:56 < fluffypony> nicolag: nothing prevents them, that's why there's more than 1 miner
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20:29 < bramc> Hey everybody
20:29 < bramc> The discussion in list is productive, but unfortunately it's cut into my coding time :-/
20:30 < bramc> It's been worth it just to find out that blake2 is 5 times as fast as sha256 though. Anybody know what the block and padding sizes for blake2 are?
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21:21 < nicolag> has it been proven that byzantine fault tolerant protocols must have 3 phases? (/cc amiller)
21:22 < amiller> it might depend on the setting, especially synchronous, asyncronous, or osmeting else, and what tolerance
21:23 < amiller> and whether you mean in the worst case or in an optimistic case
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21:24 < amiller> nicolag,
21:24 < amiller> i'm curious if you had something specific in mind!
21:24 < amiller> also: hi nicola!
21:25 < nicolag> hello amiller, I am on my way reading your honey badger paper
21:25 < nicolag> and I took a step back re-reading the pbft
21:26 < nicolag> and I have been watching Barbara Liskov presenting in 2001
21:26 < nicolag> (http://video.mit.edu/watch/practical-byzantine-fault-tolerance-9388/)
21:27 < nicolag> and at some point she says that 3f+1 has been proven, while she could not come up if 3 phases is the minimal
21:27 < nicolag> amount of phases (with a valid proof)
21:29 < amiller> there are faster ones
21:29 < amiller> note that this is in the optimistic case
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21:29 < amiller> like, pbft for sure takes more phases if you have some failures and so you have to do the view change steps
21:29 < amiller> here's a 1-rounder https://www.cs.cornell.edu/projects/QuickSilver/public_pdfs/52180438.pdf
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21:34 < nicolag> I will have a look at it
21:34 < nicolag> if you have other background reading, please send
21:35 < zooko> bramc: the RFC is probably the best resource for you to learn BLAKE2: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7693
21:35 < zooko> BLAKE2b has 128-byte blocks, BLAKE2s has 64-byte blocks
21:36 < zooko> padding is "minimal", i.e. optimized out when possible
21:36 < zooko> What mailing list discussion?
21:36 < nicolag> also amiller I have a set of questions that I will ask once I am done
21:37 < nicolag> (i might answer them and ask you if my thinking is correct)
21:38 < bramc> zooko: on bitcoin-dev
21:40 < amiller> nicolag, sure
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21:43 < zooko> bramc: are the things you want to hash small things like the outputs from lower-level hashes in a tree, or large things like kilobytes worth of data? Or both?
21:44 < zooko> You can look up the sort of machine you want to optimize for and the size of data on http://bench.cr.yp.to/results-hash.html
21:44 < zooko> Unfortunately it isn't being maintained and there are some optimized implementations of BLAKE2 that aren't shown there.
21:44 < bramc> Mostly things which are exactly 65 bytes :-P
21:44 < zooko> Ooh. :-/
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21:45 < bramc> I can cut corners and make it 64 easily enough, but that requires no padding to work well.
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21:46 < zooko> Why does it require no padding?
21:47 < bramc> It doesn't require no padding, but the 2x speedup would be nice.
21:48 < zooko> If you don't mind optimizing for AVX2, there's a new implementation by Dcoder that is just beautiful on AVX2.
21:48 < zooko> It's 1.5 cycles per byte!
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21:48 < bramc> What is avx2?
21:48 < zooko> But you have to have sufficiently long inputs that the SIMD can do its magic.
21:48 < zooko> AVX2 is a new wide SIMD instruction in x86-64 chips.
21:49 < bramc> Oh, nope, no sufficiently long inputs here, and this must run well on a wide range of hardware
21:51 < zooko> As for the last issue, I personally try to target ARM chips nowadays, figuring that *everything* is fast on new Intel chips.
21:51 < bramc> The most interesting benchmark is the least favorable hardware.
21:51 < zooko> Exactly. minimax
21:51 < zooko> As for the first issue, I was thinking you might be able to construct wide inputs if you wanted by having higher fanout or something.
21:51 < zooko> http://bench.cr.yp.to/results-hash.html has results on lots of different hardware.
21:52 < bramc> I don't really need to look at benchmarks to know I should switch to blake2. It beats sha256 in a blowout.
21:53 < zooko> Right.
21:53 < bramc> What is the significance of blake2b and blake2s?
21:54 < zooko> b is the 64-bit-optimized version, with 128-byte blocks, and s is the 32-bit-optimized version, with 64-byte blocks.
21:54 < bramc> My API should probably stick with sha256 for the things passed in, because it accepts them either hashed or unhashed and the external hashing function is much more likely to be sha256
21:54 < bramc> Ah. My understanding is that 32-bit machines are dying out.
21:55 < zooko> Yeah, I was surprised to see 64-bit quickly spread in cell phones
21:55 < zooko> 32-bit is probably continuing to be super-important in embedded (IoT) and so on.
21:56 < zooko> But if your inputs can fit into 64-bytes then BLAKE2s might be a little more efficient even on 64-bit CPUs.
21:56 < zooko> Or maybe not. Probably ought to try both and measure.
21:58 < bramc> I doubt there are going to be many 32-bit machines running this so I'm going to optimize for the common case and do blake2.
21:58 < bramc> Also I don't expect to see many 128-bit machines ever.
22:00  * zooko nods
22:00 < zooko> BLAKE2b is a fine choice.
22:02 < gmaxwell> the other fun though is that sha2 looks like it will be considerably faster once silicon support for it ships.
22:03 < gmaxwell> So you end up with the aes vs chacha support, where aes is much faster/more power efficient with hardware support, and much worse without.
22:03 < kanzure> bramc: https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/doc/merkle-mountain-range.md
22:03 < kanzure> https://github.com/proofchains/python-proofmarshal/blob/master/proofmarshal/mmr.py
22:03 < kanzure> and for others following along:
22:03 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-May/012715.html
22:03 < zooko> gmaxwell: good point!
22:04 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-June/012758.html
22:05 < bramc> gmaxwell: grumble grumble. blake2b is probably down in 'cache misses are just as much of a problem' territory, so the boost from hardware acceleration might not matter all that much.
22:07 < bramc> I like how we went through all that time and effort to select sha3 and now we're debating sha256 vs. blake.
22:07 < zooko> ;-)
22:07 < zooko> SHA3 could also be super-fast someday, if added into hardware.
22:08 < bramc> Everything is fast if you accelerate it in hardware.
22:08 < zooko> The SHA3 contest was a great success. It produced not only SHA3, but also produced the realization that making secure hash functions is relatively easy nowadays, and in fact SHA256 apparently already was one.
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22:25 < Taek> blake2 also doesn't suffer from length extension attacks
22:26 < zooko> True.
22:27 < zooko> My observation in choosing between SHA256 and BLAKE2 in Zcash is that dumb engineering bits that like make a big difference.
22:27 < zooko> Keying, length-extension, personalization.
22:27 < gmaxwell> bramc: fwiw, sha2 is siginificant in profiles of bitcoin core, enough that there is work underway to use sse4 sha256, and use parallel sha256 in the tree hashing.
22:28 < gmaxwell> it wasn't until we made everything else fast, however.
22:28 < bramc> gmaxwell: Adding utxo commitments would quite a bit of hashing overhead
22:29 < bramc> would add I mean
22:30 < gmaxwell> (in particular the impact on block connection is non-trivial... as signatures are cached and such)
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