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11:36 < jl2012> some discussion related to MAST and new opcodes:
11:37 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:11:01] <jl2012> I don't really understand why Satoshi disabled SUBSTR, LEFT, RIGHT. I can't find any discussion
11:37 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:11:43] <petertodd> jl2012: probably only because they looked complex
11:37 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:13:34] <jl2012> LSHIFT would crash some nodes. So he disabled all the bitwise logic codes
11:37 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:15:56] <jl2012> https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/mastopcodes/bip-mastopcodes.mediawiki#Examples
11:37 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:16:49] <jl2012> I gave 2 examples here. To realize these use cases, CAT and SUBSTR are the minimum requirement
11:37 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:20:45] <petertodd> why do the expand? opcodes remove _all_ stack items?
11:37 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:22:31] <jl2012> same as segwit, my MAST bip (BIP114) requires the stack to have exactly 1 true value left after evaluation
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11:40 < jl2012> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/RTgj0ZMu/
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:22:55] <petertodd> after evaluation of any opcode?
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:24:17] <jl2012> after evaluation of the script. But EXPANDs will terminate the evaluation immediately
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:24:33] <jl2012> a bit similar to Satoshi's original OP_RETURN
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:24:51] <petertodd> ah, right
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:25:08] <petertodd> hmm... seems like a potential footgun
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:26:22] <jl2012> yes, that could be risky. I made this proposal before we expand the definition of witness program from 32 to 40 bytes
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:26:36] <jl2012> This may not be necessary now
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:26:59] <petertodd> yeah, I'd be very strongly inclined to leave that off - there's certainty in the fact that evaluation continues to the end
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:27:12] <petertodd> not entirely unrelated to evaluation being stateless
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:27:29] <jl2012> and I want to propose killing OP_IF and its friends in MAST
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:27:55] <petertodd> why?
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:28:24] <jl2012> because MAST could handle everything that OP_IF could do
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:28:34] <petertodd> how?
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:29:21] <jl2012> just put different conditions as different MAST branches
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:29:45] <jl2012> example: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0114.mediawiki#Hashed_TimeLock_Contract
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:29:46] <petertodd> ah right, because mast *is* an op_if - fair enough
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:30:09] <petertodd> hmm, that's kinda a confusing way of writing this stuff...
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:30:20] <jl2012> that will make sure all op_codes in a script to be executed
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:30:26] <jl2012> easier to audit
11:41 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:30:40] <jl2012> simply the implmentation
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:30:50] <petertodd> ...all executed in a sucesful evaluation of course
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:31:10] <petertodd> yeah, I don't think the way you've written that htlc contract is easy to read at all - but that's just a presentation-layer thing
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:32:14] <jl2012> i think it's easier than the expression in BIP112, at least....
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:33:05] <petertodd> again, not having if's is very confusing
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:33:28] <btcdrak> confusing it not good for adoption
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:33:49] <petertodd> like I say, this doesn't need to be a lower-level fix, just a fix in terms of how we pretty-print this stuff
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:34:44] <jl2012> I think using IF is very confusing.....to understand that BIP112 example, I have to execute the script with pen and paper
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:34:59] <petertodd> same kind of reason why I show dex expressions in lisp form, even though you could show them in depth-first form, and many implementations might work better that way
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:36:05] <petertodd> have you considered brackets? I mean, the confusion in the BIP112 example for you probably stems from the fact this is a stack-based language - with or without lisp-like brackets can actually be done the same way under the hood
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:44:50] <jl2012> for example, it's not obvious why a 2DROP is used, until one really runs the script step by step
11:42 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:49:36] <petertodd> ? I mean, if you know what CSV does it seems pretty obvious to me
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:50:52] <jl2012> but usually you use a DROP after CSV, not 2DROP. So you need to figure out what the other item is dropped
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:51:43] <petertodd> well, because of what was on the stack in the if of course
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:51:58] <jl2012> maybe I'm not smart enough to run this script mentally....
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:52:34] <petertodd> I mean, it's just a factor of how optimized the script is; it could be written otherwise, which your mast version makes impossible
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:53:28] <jl2012> "which your mast version makes impossible" <--- don't understand
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:54:36] <petertodd> I mean, if I understand it right, I can't reuse the stuff on the stack in the same way that the bip112 version does
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:56:01] <jl2012> it's a MAST, that means you will/can only use one of the conditions a time. So why would you like to reuse something?
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 01:59:21] <petertodd> because I might have two conditions that use the same data
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:00:07] <jl2012> yes, but the unexecuted condition is hidden in the merkle tree, anyway
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:00:46] <petertodd> eh, let me take a closer look at this - we're talking past each other
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:02:08] <jl2012> "using the same data".... in the BIP112 example, you mean the public keys of Alice and Bob in the script? (actually the example is wrong for using "key hash". Should be "pubkey")
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:04:04] <jl2012> fix: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/411
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:12:56] <petertodd> yeah, so I see your point now; you're just making the argument that for any difference, just add more versions of the script repeating the same code
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:13:50] <jl2012> yes
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:16:25] <petertodd> might make sense to not call this "MAST" but rather "multi-script"
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:16:37] <petertodd> it's not really an abstract syntax tree anymore
11:43 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:17:51] <jl2012> oh, that's my understanding of MAST......what's the difference?
11:44 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:18:59] <jl2012> AFAIK, there has been no clear spec for MAST. That's my understanding
11:44 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:19:20] <petertodd> well, with MAST I'd expect multiple branches to share the same stack
11:44 < jl2012> [2016-06-24 02:20:26] <jl2012> same stack? why and how? Alice won't have the signature of Bob, for example
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15:41 < bramc> Some commentary from me about writing software for banks https://medium.com/@bramcohen/clean-up-your-state-8d0500b4f48e#.srb67yutm
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15:51 < kanzure> bramc: arguably all of that should be a giant state machine with events and transitions instead
15:51 < kanzure> bramc: with perfect rollback support
15:53 < bramc> kanzure: State machine, asynchronous message passing, enforced invariants on balances. All those things are good ideas. But they're fancy and applicable in only a few circumstances. The first things to do is to learn to code like you graduated from junior high.
15:53 < kanzure> and message queues. giant message queues, enough to make mulesoft cry.
15:54 < kanzure> well re: junior high that's more of a lemon market problem (e.g. hard to tell whether the guys at the other end of your API call are morons or have implemented a pile of shit)
15:58 < bramc> Putting calls at the end of methods (or right before a return), even calls to internal methods within the same class, is something I've been doing reflexively for the last twenty years
15:58 < bramc> There's no downside to doing it right.
15:58 < kanzure> yes yes, and people stuff variable definitions near the top of their methods, etc.
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18:22 < kanzure> wei dai doing a thesis defense on "statistical methods in cryptography" http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/news/events/ms-thesis-defense-wei-dai
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