--- Log opened Tue Jun 28 00:00:42 2016
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00:01 < limbera> is this the right place to ask questions about bitcoin/blockchain?
00:01 < limbera> i have some holes in my understanding that i'm trying to mend
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00:26 < jl2012> here or #bitcoin-dev
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02:40 < kinlo> just here, -dev is only for developmen
02:40 < kinlo> we'll redirect when needed :)
02:40 < kinlo> oh, wait, wrong channel, ask on #bitcoin
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05:43 < realchlorum_> Hello :)
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10:23 < Taek> What if you had a proof-of-storage coin where the coin was cryptographically bound to actual storage
10:23 < Taek> meaning, if the storage disappeared, so would the coin
10:23 < Taek> I guess that makes it hard to outsource
10:23 < Taek> but it would put a floor on the value of the coin
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11:41 < zooko> Taek: neat idea. :-)
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11:47 < bsm117532> Uh what did I miss...
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11:56 < bsm117532> Taek: how do you achieve that?
11:57 < bsm117532> In as much as a crypto-currency is a "digital bearer bond" -- its cryptographic proof is there in the smallness of the hash target, and it's compact to transmit.  It sounds like your storage idea would require the "digital bearer bond" to be precisely the thing that is being stored.
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17:58 < zooko> Taek, bsm[0-9]*: This combines two of my favorite ideas: bearer bond controlled by private key, and Proof-of-Storage.
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18:11 < bsm1175321> Some day, someone will figure out the meaning behind the numbers...it shouldn't be too hard in the crypto community.
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18:11 < bsm117532> ahem, these numbers.  My IRC client adds the 1.  It has nothing to do with the others.
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18:13 < bsm117532> zooko: It seems to me that since presenting the proof of storage is equivalent to storage, the proof is effectively worthless (or equivalent).  The idea, I think, is that the storer is holding *more* than they offer as proof.  But this boils down to basic counterparty risk.
18:19 < bsm117532> Any algorithm which seeks to determine whether I'm actually storing the data, without requiring me to produce *all* data, can be short-circuited.  e.g. a bittorrent-style Merkle proof can be short circuited such that I store half as much data, but get paid half the time.  Any challenge-response algorithm is at best statistical, unless you, yourself, are holding all the data.
18:20  * bsm117532 suddenly groks the difficulty with proof-of-storage.
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18:24 < bsm117532> A ZKP that you hold could be constructed in an analagous manner to the Fiat-Shamir scheme.  However this is effectively security by obscurity.  If you intend to upload your data to the cloud, delete it, but retain a set of compact ZKP's, you're then reliant on those ZKP's not being stolen.
18:24 < bsm117532> Any proof sufficient to actually *prove* you hold the data must be equivalent in size to the data itself.
18:27 < rusty2> So, if bloom filtering sucks for privacy, are there other proposals?
18:27 < bsm117532> A statistical proof that you're holding 97% of my data is worthless, when single bit errors can render an archived filesystem unreadable.  (Don't get me started on filesystems without integrated error correction and detection...)
18:27 -!- rusty2 is now known as rusty
18:28 < bsm117532> rusty: No.  It doesn't matter what's in the "proof".  If  you request any subset of data, I know your target of interest is in the subset.
18:28 < bsm117532> Your only recourse is to request a larger subset, and eventually, you're a full node.
18:28 < rusty> bsm117532: I'm starting a new thread, sorry for any confusion :)
18:29 < bsm117532> rusty: no problem, I think Taek and zokoo are not online now anyway.  ;-)
18:30 < bsm117532> rusty: However, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblivious_transfer
18:33 < rusty> bsm117532: even if all filtering will reduce your anonymity set, the current implementation is both remarkably poor, and complex.  Simply allowing a node to set filters based on the bottom 20 bits would be as effective, and be easy for wallet authors to reason about.
18:33 < bsm117532> Using oblivious transfer, requesting a subset A of B such that A < B would presumably require a full node to perform a computation over a larger subset C such that A < C < B.  So, presumably such an idea places a load upon full nodes that can easily be construed as a DoS attack.
18:34 < bsm117532> rusty: Bloom filters are dumb, Cuckoo filters are where it's at.
18:34 < bsm117532> You basically just described a Cuckoo filter.
18:34 < rusty> (Note: bottom 20 bits of some template-based transform of the tx, such as address extraction for p2pkh, etc).
18:35 < bsm117532> The objects of interest to us are *already* the outputs of hash functions, and therefore uniformly distributed.  There's no reason to hash them again in a Bloom filter, and as you say, it's unnecessarily complex.  A cuckoo filter is precisely truncating to a certain number of bits.
18:36 < rusty> bsm117532: argh, no... you still want to be able to specify the number of bits you're interested in, eg. "bottom 10 bits are xxx".
18:36 < bsm117532> rusty: that's unavoidable.
18:36 < rusty> bsm117532: well, uniformly distributed in the non-DoS case, but there's no advantage to bloom there either AFAICT.
18:36 < bsm117532> You simply can't encode 100000 possibilities into only 10 bits.
18:39 < bsm117532> Bloom filters are incredibly hard to reason about, since they involve opaque constants k (number of hash functions) and m (number of bits).  It's much easier to reason about cuckoo filters -- if I'm asking for a cuckoo filter of 10 bits, you know there are at most 1024 possibilities in my set of interest.  k and m just hide the obvious.
18:40 < rusty> bsm117532: ?  If you have simple #bits-must-match-value filters, then sender can choose their precision.  If you restrict #bits < 20, and the total number of filters per node, the filtering implementation gets extremely fast too.
18:40 < bsm117532> Yes.  Why the (?)  ?
18:41 < bsm117532> Maybe I'm missing what "filters per node" is referring to...
18:41 < rusty> A response to your "You simply can't encode 100000 possibilities into only 10 bits." which seems a non-sequiteur...
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18:42 < rusty> bsm117532: the simplest scheme possible is a #bits-must-match-value filter.  But you need more than one per node for that case (unless they're really only watching one address).
18:43 < bsm117532> Why is more than one node required?  (Forgive me I'm not super versant with bitcoin's SPV implementation)
18:45 < rusty> bsm117532: if my SPV wallet hands out two addresses, it wants to see payments to either one.  If it's using BIP32, it can grind out addresses which match on the lower bits, simplifying its filter, but if it imports addresses from elsewhere it's inevitable that it will want more than one filtering pattern.
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18:48 < bsm117532> You're going to make me dig up my Bloom filter worksheets from years ago.  I'm unable to reconstruct the argument I'm trying to give about cuckoo filters, except that I found them a lot easier to reason about.  My conclusion was that the "filter size" was log(number of possible matched elements) for both Bloom and cuckoo, but Bloom was far more difficult to reason about due to the extra parameter.
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18:51 < bsm117532> rusty: My suggestion regarding oblivious transfer is analagous to what happens with ZKP's.  ZKP's are also an interactive protocol, made non-interactive by the Fiat-Shamir mechanism.  In other words, I can perform log(n) requests in order to query the entire database, leaving the database provider oblivious as to what I queried, but requiring the database provider to actually retrieve every single element recorded.
18:52 < bsm117532> Thus, privacy comes at the cost of the provider having to read the entire database in order to satisfy every query.  (which, seems obvious in hindsight)
18:53 < Taek> rusty: what's the ultimate goal? A compressed way to tell someone what transactions you have?
18:53 < Taek> bsm117532: you can do a proof of storage without the data as long as you held the data at one point in time
18:53 < rusty> Taek: no, a way to filter what txs you receive, without leaking too much info.  ie. SPV wallet.
18:54 < Taek> That seems inherently leaky. If you are only receiving 1/10th the transactions I know that yours are in that 1/10th
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18:56 < bsm117532> Taek: I think I'm saying the same thing -- I can short-circuit the proof algorithm by computing the proofs and deleting the original storage, if I know how to compute the proofs beforehand.  Therefore my "proof" is only as good as the requester's ability to keep the proof requirements secret.
18:57 < Taek> ah, that's true. Anything else is statistical. But, even hashing is statistical
18:57 < zooko> rusty: I think that's basically the "Private Information Retrieval" problem.
18:57 < zooko> It's a hoary classic in crypto, and I don't think there's a simple home-run solution yet.
18:58  * bsm117532 again groks the difficulty with proof-of-storage.  Seems to me it's fundamentally counterparty risk.  Perhaps statistics is an improvement.  But we haven't made a revolution here, yet.
18:58 < zooko> But there are many complex solutions with interesting properties that you may like to study. :-)
18:59 < zooko> I think I have an improvement to PoS/PoR. Can I shoot you a stale rough draft?
18:59 < Taek> I'd be interested in seeing it
18:59 < zooko> Will do, Taek.
18:59 < rusty> zooko: ha thanks!  No, I don't plan on solving it.  It looks like engineering incremental improvements FTW.
19:00 < zooko> It is written for a reader who already groks Tahoe-LAFS, but you either already grok that or you can pick it up easily …
19:00 < bsm117532> I made a funny comparison that now seems apt: For such IOU systems, their flaw is that no matter how ironclad your records, they must be tied to the real world assets. Just because my clay tablet says you have three goats, and owe me two, doesn’t prove that you possess three goats or are capable of producing two. This is counterparty risk, and is fundamental to IOU-based accounting systems, leading to the creati
19:00 < zooko> The bottom line is that erasure coding *across* servers combined with client-privacy is really different and better than anything that doesn't have those two things.
19:00 < bsm117532> https://blog.sldx.com/whats-wrong-with-proof-of-stake-77d4f370be15
19:00 < zooko> IMHO
19:01  * zooko is searching for stale, rough-draft text files on old filesystems…
19:01 < bsm117532> Goats being equivalent to bits of storage, here.
19:01 < Taek> oh that would be a good strategy. If you download your transactions from multiple parties nobody has the complete picture, especially if you slip some false positive in
19:01 < bsm117532> Taek: I like it.
19:02 < bsm117532> Yet it's still inherently statistical.  Your guarantee that anyone is holding all your shit is only statistical.  If I can satisfy your request 97% of the time and get paid, that's a damn good business model.
19:04 < bsm117532> zooko: Your guarantee that a party has correctly implemented erasure encoding is only statistical.
19:04 < zooko> bsm117532: I think we can make it net negative for lossy servers...
19:05 < bsm117532> I'm pretty fundamentally against punishment-based systems.  Because...Sybil.
19:05 < zooko> Here, I found the text file. Will send, if you agree to either send me at least 25 words of commentary in response within 72 hours or else you have to post a picture of yourself balancing a mug full of beer on your head.
19:05  * zooko lols
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19:06  * bsm117532 will transmit head-beer across the tubes with glee.
19:11 < zooko> Uh-oh, I made the mistake of reading the rough draft before sending it…
19:11 < zooko> and now I've found the place where I was 2/3 of the way through rewriting it and a sentence tails off with "xxxxxc stopping for the night".
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19:18 < bsm117532> Take it from me: it's the onus of the author to not burden the reader with his bullshit.  Not the other way around.  Proof-of-Stakers take note.
19:19 < zooko> Oh, good thing I'm sitting here editing this up before I send it to you then,
19:20 < zooko> Gotta earn that beer-balancing pic.
19:20 < bsm117532> I might even pour the beer into a watermelon first zooko, if it's good enough. ;-)
19:21 < bsm117532> FWIW you're doing well so far.  Don't screw this up!  :-P
19:24 < zooko> Sigh, now I have to try to repair all the broken links. The web is so damned fragile!!
19:25 < bsm117532> Meh, don't bother with that, just make a cogent argument.
19:26  * bsm117532 reviews reams of non-cogent, non-published articles on his hard drive.
19:26 < bsm117532> Triply-backed-up, of course, until Taek comes to save us from bit-rot.  ;-)
19:34 < zooko> What's Taek's email addr?
19:41 < Taek> david@nebulouslabs.com
19:41 < zooko> Thanks!
19:42 < zooko> Sent! Thank you so much for expressing interest in this particular thing, which I've invested hours into and am very proud of even though it has never really been "published".
19:44 < bsm117532> Let me state here for posterity, my respect for zooko not withstanding in the preceding discussion.
19:45 < bsm117532> Is always the onus of the creator of an idea to prove it, not the responsibility of everyone else to disprove it.  A simple Sybil attack is to flood the knowledgeable with bullshit, and force them to make sense of it.  This is madness.  It is far easier to create bullshit and supply it to the knowledgeable than for the knowledgeable to disprove it.  One must prove one's ideas.
19:47 < zooko> :-)
19:49 < bsm117532> And here I'm going to shill: http://ledgerjournal.org.  Our purpose is to separate the wheat from the chaff and find the truly great ideas, by the only system that has truly proven itself: peer review.  We will find the most relevant expert and submit it to rigorous peer review.  We exist to determine if your idea passes muster.  That's what peer review is.  We have many relevant experts or will find a relevant exp
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20:19 < zooko> Uhm, thanks for the suggestion! What a compliment. Tell me if you still want me to submit it after you look at that text file I sent.
20:19 < zooko> It doesn't have any blockchain in it.
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21:19 <@midnightmagic> Right, except the managing editor is a plagiarizing aggressive type who draws little cartoons of people getting crushed to death. <_<
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