--- Log opened Thu Jul 07 00:00:50 2016
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03:47 < nicolagreco> I am a big fan of silvio micali, did anyone read his last work https://arxiv.org/abs/1607.01341  ?
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04:35 < maaku> Jeremy_Rand : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8307
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05:37 < bsm1175321> nicolagreco: I'm tired of this refrain that bitcoin is "wasteful".  PoW ties the value of BTC to the real world.  Without that, your coin is worthless.
05:39 < maaku> bsm1175321: what you're really saying is that lack of trust is wasteful
05:39 < maaku> the waste still existw
05:43 < bsm1175321> maaku: not at all, one can have distributed consensus (PAXOS, Honey Badger) without mining, but no one should or will pay for individual database rows.  The fast settlement of Bitcoin is achieved because the database row IS the asset, through PoW.  Without mining, your solution will be relegated to an IOU system tracking external value.
05:44 < maaku> bsm1175321: point is if we all trusted each other, and that trust was magically unbreakable, the simple database is sufficient
05:45 < bsm1175321> maaku: My point is that Byzantine fault tolerant databases exist.
05:45 < bsm1175321> Trust is not the issue.
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05:47 < waxwing> expenditure of energy to display fitness (in nature, peacock feathers, or things like expensive bank buildings) are not necessarily wasteful, if they avoid ultra-expensive conflict
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07:34 < amiller_> nicolagreco, i think the assumptions in this paper are a bit strong
07:36 < amiller_> 1. Honest Majority of Users: A given majority (e.g., 75%) of the users are honest.
07:36 < amiller_> 2. Honest Majority of Money: Honest users own a given majority of the money in the system.
07:36 < amiller_> that's pretty similar to the typical proof of stake setting
07:38 < amiller_> i don't know yet how this compares to all the other proof of stake papers this doesn't cite especially https://arxiv.org/abs/1406.5694
07:39 < amiller_> also "Honest users own a given majority of the money in the system." doesn't seem like a well defined assumption
07:40 < katu_> it works pretty well in practice. the problem with PoS is not this assumption, but that past ownership still retains vote about the future
07:50 < amiller_> i think that assumption is likely to break down exactly when there is a fork, and so for a moment there's more than the total amount of money or its unclear which is the right ownershi
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07:51 < amiller_> and those are exactly the confusing / unintuitive scenarios where it would be nice to fall back on formal reasoning
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11:19 < Chris_Stewart_5> In the sidechains whitepaper, it says that we need to "change Bitcoin blockheaders to commit to all of its ancestors instead of just the block header before it"
11:19 < Chris_Stewart_5> however, don't blockheaders already commit to all if its ancestors by way of including the previous blockhash, which links to it's previous block hash and so on?
11:20 < amiller_> Chris_Stewart_5, yeah that's a good point, the intended meaning is about committing efficiently
11:21 < Chris_Stewart_5> Ok, so we can go from O(n) to O(1)?
11:21 < amiller_> O(n) to O(log n) with a simple tree
11:23 < Chris_Stewart_5> amiller_: How do you build this tree? For instance if I provide a block header of height n, what are my left nodes and right nodes? (n-1,n-2)?
11:24 < Chris_Stewart_5> Oh wait.. the leaves or the actual blockheaders... nvm
11:24 < Chris_Stewart_5> are*
11:24 < amiller_> it's easy to append to a binary tree only ever touching log n nodes
11:25 < amiller_> the tree for block n will naturally share most of the branches with the tree for block n-1
11:25 < Chris_Stewart_5> True
11:28 < Chris_Stewart_5> Apparently with these skiplists no rebalancing is needed either which is intruiging
11:30 < Chris_Stewart_5> amiller_: The paper uses the word 'provers' a couple times but I don't see a definition, what exactly is meant by this?
11:31 < Chris_Stewart_5> From what I am inferring it seems like it is extra burden on bitcoin node operators to go and validate blockheaders
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12:56 < amiller_> Chris_Stewart_5, yeah it would be overhead for miners/validators to have to validate the updated trees in block headers
12:56 < amiller_> but it seems like it would be a trivial amount
12:56 < amiller_> you wouldn't need to transmit any extra information
12:56 < amiller_> the SPV verifier should keep some state, including the previous block header, and the previous O(log n) merkle tree hashes
12:57 < amiller_> that's all you need in order to append to the tree
12:57 < amiller_> it's a little bit more complicated for implementing reorgs but maybe not too bad still
12:57 < petertodd> amiller_: speaking of, have you ever tried that with my pruned MMR implementation?
12:57 < amiller_> petertodd, i haven't
12:57 < amiller_> nor with brams
12:58 < petertodd> amiller_: you should - it extracts those O(log n) merkle tree tip hashes automatically for you
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14:38 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> maaku: so I'm relatively certain that a previous draft of SegWit did include a commitment specifically intended for merged mining.  jl2012 actually notified Namecoin devs about its existence in January.  Is there any documentation on why that got removed from the final spec?
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14:43 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> looks like it was removed by https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/commit/5574301656f61142e45540e33dbe88b397a89a93 ... petertodd, sorry to bother you, but is there any documentation on why that change was made?
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15:02 < nicolagreco> thanks amiller_ I will look into it
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 08 00:00:51 2016