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ZZZzzz…] 02:08 < nicolagreco> kanzure, bsm1175321 have you seen vuvuzela? 02:09 < fluffypony> I have like 3 of those in my cupboard 02:09 < fluffypony> oh you mean the software 02:09 < fluffypony> nm 02:09 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:dd45:2c3b:f91:7dea] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:09 < nicolagreco> ha! ^ 02:12 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@241.red-83-47-85.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:12 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@241.red-83-47-85.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@241.red-83-47-85.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 -!- whphhg_ is now known as whphhg 02:25 -!- iddo [~idddo@unaffiliated/iddo] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:25 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:27 -!- iddo [~idddo@hyena.cs.cornell.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:40 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:45 -!- 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ruby32d [~ruby32@184-207-3-43.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:29 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@184.207.3.44] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:31 -!- jtimon [~quassel@55.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:35 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@184.207.3.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:38 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:39 -!- ruby32d [~ruby32@184.248.2.55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:43 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:43 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:45 -!- markus-k [~markus-k@designnet.work.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:47 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:47 < maaku> ;seen vuvuzela 04:47 < maaku> .seen vuvuzela 04:47 < yoleaux> I haven't seen vuvuzela around. 04:47 * fluffypony chuckles 04:47 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:51 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[~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:08 -!- igotcompetence [~igotcompe@192.80.7.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:11 -!- SireWolf [~SireWolf@63.152.32.217.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:15 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:16 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 -!- JackH [~Jack@79-73-186-51.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35 -!- YOU-JI [~youyouyou@q047133.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:39 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:41 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:46 < nicolagreco> I meant "have you read vuvuzela", the paper similar to riposte, riffle and cmix 06:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:52 < bsm1175321> https://github.com/davidlazar/vuvuzela 06:52 < bsm1175321> oooh nicolagreco that's a great ref, thanks!!! 06:53 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53 -!- zooko [~user@68.233.157.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:55 < nicolagreco> I have got a question, maybe the answer is trivial, but why blockchains are hashchains and not history trees? 06:55 -!- lysobit- [~musalbas@2001:bc8:30c2::] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:56 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:56 < bsm1175321> Because you need a single agreed upon global state. A history tree (like git) has many valid histories. Having a single state means we agreed that I transferred coins to you, and that there don't exist two histories, one where I transferred the coins, and one where I didn't. 07:01 < bsm1175321> FWIW I am working on bringing "merging" to my brads idea -- being able to merge histories rather than orphaning one. 07:03 < nicolagreco> "Because you need a single agreed upon global state" 07:03 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03 < nicolagreco> what you make the miners agree on is the root of the history tree 07:04 < bsm1175321> The root of the history tree is the "genesis block" and basically *defines* the currency. Other genesis blocks define another currency (such as namecoin/litecoin/dogecoin/etc) 07:04 < nicolagreco> when I mean history tree I refer to Crosby's "Efficient data structures for tamper-evident logs" 07:05 < nicolagreco> oh but in an history tree 07:05 < nicolagreco> the genesis block would just be the first block in the "log" backed by the history tree 07:06 < nicolagreco> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/efLlWwef/Screen%20Shot%202016-07-12%20at%204.06.01%20PM.png 07:06 < bsm1175321> Yes. 07:06 < bsm1175321> http://static.usenix.org/event/sec09/tech/full_papers/crosby.pdf 07:06 < bsm1175321> I believe this is basically identical to how git works, but correct me if I'm wrong. 07:06 < nicolagreco> miners agree on the root, and check that the history is consistent and the initial X is the genesis block 07:07 < bsm1175321> Oh I see -- this idea has been mentioned before in the context of SPV wallets. 07:07 < bsm1175321> SPV wallets currently keep the "hash chain" of block headers. 07:08 < bsm1175321> It's possible to make a tree out of that hash chain and achieve the same security at log(n) space. This idea comes up occasionally here... 07:08 < bsm1175321> But, you have to trust the person that turned the chain into a tree. 07:09 < bsm1175321> Since one cannot recover the proof-of-work from the root of such a tree. 07:09 -!- SireWolf [~SireWolf@63.152.32.217.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:09 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@38.97.94.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- SireWolf [~SireWolf@63.152.32.217.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- agner_io [~agner.io@192.40.88.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 < maaku> bsm1175321: the solution is to have block header tree commitments 07:10 < bsm1175321> ^^ what maaku says. Is this idea anywhere near being realized? 07:12 < maaku> rusty and I did some work on it ... 18 months ago? was it really that long ago? 07:12 < maaku> anyway, there's some R&D that needs to be done on what the best commitment structure is 07:12 -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:12 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:12 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:12 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:fca8:3ca2:fdeb:738c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 < maaku> recursive MMR was the best 'generic' structure, but rusty was finding some (ugly, imho) custom structures to be slightly faster. i'm hopeful a generic structure as good as the magic-number special case structures can be found 07:13 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 < maaku> other than that, there's just a minimal amount of engineering effort to actually make and check the commitments 07:15 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:15 -!- BCBot [~BCBot@46.101.246.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:15 -!- execute [~execute@52.68.0.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:16 < bsm1175321> I might end up picking up the torch of "light client security model" and include that with UTXO set commitments...we need implementations for testing. 07:16 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17 < maaku> bsm1175321: may I suggest working on a talk for Scaling Bitcoin 3? 07:17 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:fca8:3ca2:fdeb:738c] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:17 < bsm1175321> Good suggestion. Can you link your existing work? 07:18 < bsm1175321> I can't promise, I want to finish this braids stuff too. But the two are related (because both of these light client security proposals increase validation time) 07:18 -!- agner_io [~agner.io@192.40.88.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:18 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:18 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:27 -!- murch [~murch@p4FDB78D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:27 < nicolagreco> "But, you have to trust the person that turned the chain into a tree." 07:27 < nicolagreco> not if you make this part of the consensus/verification 07:27 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:28 < maaku> nicolagreco: that's what was just said ^ 07:28 < nicolagreco> maaku: whoops, still reading 07:29 < nicolagreco> bsm1175321: keep me posted about the braids idea 07:30 < nicolagreco> bsm1175321: or if I can help some how, I will definitely put some time thinking in that direction for a bit in the coming months 07:34 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:35 < nicolagreco> maaku is there some work I can see read on this? 07:36 < bsm1175321> Well we've entered a "quiet period" with the SEC due to some other things going on at my company (check Reddit), which likely gives me free rein to work on longer-term projects. ;-) 07:38 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:44 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:50 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has quit [Client Quit] 07:53 < nsh> you perfected cold fusion? neato 07:54 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:55 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:01 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:02 < nicolagreco> maaku, bsm1175321 on the previous point, I have just been told to read this http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf 08:02 < kanzure> nicolagreco: have you been making use of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ ? 08:03 < nicolagreco> kanzure: thanks! first time I see it 08:03 < nicolagreco> I already see a great intersection with my list 08:03 < nicolagreco> wow, this list is huge 08:04 < kanzure> it's just stuff i've been reading 08:05 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05 < kanzure> i also have a variety of other topics http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ etc 08:05 < nicolagreco> kanzure: have you read them all? 08:05 < kanzure> for some value of "reading", yes. every symbol on every page? no... 08:06 < nicolagreco> that is still a long list, thanks for sharing this 08:07 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 < nicolagreco> we should categorize them like andrej karpathy does for nlp 08:07 < nicolagreco> s/nlp/nlp papers/ 08:09 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:09 -!- AusteritySucks [~Austerity@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:13 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:15 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:15 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:17 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:19 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@38.97.94.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:22 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:24 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@38.97.94.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:25 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:36 < bsm117532> I suppose a light client a la the Kiayias/Lamprou/Stouka paper above couldn't verify retargets... :-/ 08:36 -!- mrpocoyo [~renlord@59.167.194.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:47 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:49 -!- roman_ [~quassel@2a01:cb1d:4a4:2e00:b465:62bb:1f9d:4023] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 -!- GAit [~GAit@212.91.77.39] has joined 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