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02:05 < MaxSan_> Jeff Garzik in here?
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07:08 < JackH> how can the ethereum blockchain be sustained? If they have very quick block times and (from my limited understanding), no limits how can this ever scale?
07:08 < JackH> and yes this is a wizards topic for those that should ask
07:09 < tromp> they have dynamic block size limits that miners can vote on to slowly increase
07:09 < JackH> what is it currently?
07:10 < tromp> now that is off-topic:)
07:10 < JackH> heh
07:10 < tromp> dunno; go ask in eth channel
07:10 < JackH> but still, my main question is, how can this ever scale and be kept decentralized?
07:11 < JackH> I fail to understand
07:12 < helo> they swallowed down their big script burger with the big block koolaid
07:12 < instagibbs> JackH, you must assume miners incentives is aligned with yours
07:13 < JackH> well I am not really questioning incentives, and I get what you are saying...that if it becomes too popular and used its just going to grow to big and thats that
07:13 < JackH> right?
07:16 < pigeons> JackH: it can't. everyone knows it. their devs and users know it and think they will invent a new complexity to throw on top when the problem gets too bad. its old news.
07:17 < pigeons> and they have plenty of other challenges to deal with
07:17 < JackH> wait, so what is the purpose of it? if its own success is going to strangle it and it at best becomes some in-ram/grid processing system on a few servers then....
07:17 < helo> i think they believe that miners will keep the system within the capabilities of common setups
07:18 < pigeons> jack not really something to waste space here with
07:18 < JackH> I guess my high level question was - if they have a magic solution to this or not, but sounds like not
07:18 < tromp> yes, miners can also vote to slowly decrease the block size
07:19 < tromp> the philosophy seems to be "it will somehow work out in the end"
07:22 < funkenstein_> sounds familiar
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07:25 < funkenstein_> continue to fail to scale gracefully, etc.
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07:30 < bsm1175321> JackH: They have a plan to shard the blockchain
07:30 < JackH> well that will still only solve storing the blockchain
07:30 < JackH> what about block propagation ?
07:30 < bsm1175321> It works by basically making federations, your contract will have to run on one federation (subset of address or utxo space) an to call out to addresses in another federation it will cause extra ETH.
07:31 < bsm1175321> I expect widespread breakage and out-of-gas conditions on contracts.  I don't think it's a workable idea..
07:31 < bsm1175321> https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/53
07:32 < tromp> Rootstock claims excellent scalability as well "using probabilistic verification and fraud proofs, as well as blockchain sharding techniques"
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07:35 < JackH> I wonder when Rootstock is out, would be nice to have it
07:35 < JackH> didnt they say Sep/Oct?
07:35 < tromp> see pages 23/24 of Rootstock whitepaper at https://uploads.strikinglycdn.com/files/90847694-70f0-4668-ba7f-dd0c6b0b00a1/RootstockWhitePaperv9-Overview.pdf
07:39 < pigeons> oh are these "blockchain sharding techniques" published?
07:40 < bsm1175321> pigeons: I know of none besides the one I linked.
07:40 < pigeons> its more of the same, we'll fix it with something that can't work but trust us it will
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07:42 < bsm1175321> I've been thinking a lot about Zcash's proofs.  I think there may be a way to use a non-ZK analog to shard the blockchain.  That is, if you have some kind of commitment to a New-TXO and another commitment to a Spent-TXO or possibly an Unspent-TXO comitment, you could attach such proofs directly to transactions.
07:42 < bsm1175321> I've brought up this idea before, I think petertodd has too.  The complaint is that the size of the proofs is (# outputs)*log(n) and is generally larger than the transaction itself.
07:43 < bsm1175321> That said, I think the advantage to decentralization may outweigh this complaint, and I want to try it anyway...
07:44 < JackH> I can see people eventually in Ethereum wont care about the decentralization aspect, and just because everyone is super hyped it will end up like a datacenter chain
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 21 00:00:03 2016