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02:22 < nicolagreco> did someone have a chance to read "streaming authenticated data structure"? I haven't really understood the Generalized Hash tree contruction
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04:59 < bsm1175321> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-38348-9_22
04:59 < bsm1175321> very interesting nicolagreco, looks relevant for light clients and UTXO set commitments.
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05:24 < bsm1175321> Fucking journals...don't pay $30.  http://elaineshi.com/docs/streaming.pdf
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08:59 < bsm117532> If we had UTXO set commitments, how would that improve light client security?  Who has a real-world use case where a light client would utilize the UTXO commitment?
09:02 < helo> not sure that this is a relevant usecase, but there was a little discussion in #bitcoin yesterday about this - people don't want to go through the local work of creating the UTXO, so they download it from someone. then they can use the UTXO commitment to increase their confidence in the validity of the UTXO. this isn't SPV light client, but an in-between.
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09:06 < katu_> i thought that was partly the point of utxo commitments.
09:06 < bsm117532> helo thanks.  I'm looking for specific examples relevant for light clients.  The use case you mention is really kind of an almost-full-node use which enables faster blockchain sync.  I know peter_r and the bitcoin unlimited folks were looking at this.
09:06 < katu_> so that they can be spv validated.
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09:06 < bsm117532> katu_: It is...but can you come up with an example where a light client wants to know that an output is unspent?
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09:07 < katu_> bsm117532: to immediately see if incoming payment is valid or not, just as full client would. currently, they cant really do that.
09:08 < bsm117532> katu_: So you're thinking that a buyer might send to the seller a transaction which was already spent in a previous block?
09:09 < katu_> bsm117532: not just that. its stronger trust because the spv is semi-validating now.
09:09 < katu_> it sees the confirms *but* also sees the confirms are actually valid blocks as far as this transaction is concerned
09:09 < bsm117532> katu_: can you elaborate on "semi-validating"?
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09:10 < katu_> the commitment provides the function of having full chain in client scenario. it is not backed by having full chain, but seeing the commitments being trusted by significant amount of PoW.
09:10 < katu_> currently, you just blindly trust *next* pow not being malicious
09:11 < katu_> with the commitment, you'd not trust such a block, as attacker would have to overpower the commitment trust too
09:11 < katu_> in short, i'd feel much better for 1 and 2 conf txes with this on thin client
09:11 < bsm117532> katu_: So you're talking about an attack in which a miner mines an invalid block and tries to use it to convince someone they're getting paid, when they're not?
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09:12 < katu_> thats the current weakness of SPV, yes. it trusts next block being valid, which is weaker than just checking the utxo fully. i said semi because client obviously does not really do that.
09:12 < katu_> its a delegated work to those who verified the utxo set before
09:13 < bsm117532> Ok I see
09:15 < bsm117532> (I'm working on a blog post, trying to explain this)
09:15 < bsm117532> I'm also trying to think of use cases where I might receive a Merkle path against the UTXO set commitment, proving a single output was unspent.
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09:26 < kanzure> bsm117532: the problem with light clients is that we don't know how to make them. it's not enough to have utxo set commitments.
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09:26 < bsm117532> kanzure: can you elaborate?  Or I'm sure you have links to light client flaws... ;-)
09:27 < kanzure> you need a "fraud proof" for each validation rule, plus a reason for a miner to share proof with you in the first place
09:27 < kanzure> the only way to know is to see everything; so far we haven't figured out a way to "know" by only seeing abridged data.
09:27 < bsm117532> Yes, true.  A node can lie by refusing to respond to queries.
09:28 < kanzure> which isn't really a lie; it's more like faulty network stuff.
09:28 < kanzure> or indistinguishable from that
09:29 < bsm117532> Yeah, a light client could query lots of nodes and fail to get an answer.  But with UTXO commitments, it's not a "proven spent" or "proven unspent" failure case, it's "can't get the data" (and I'm absolutely sure I can't get the data)  which is a distinctly different problem.
09:30 < bsm117532> I'm less concerned with "miner to share proof with you in the first place".  I can set up a full node and have lots of light clients talking to it.  Anyone running a bitcoin business needs to have a full node, somewhere.
09:30 < kanzure> and, on top of that, i don't think we have "fraud proofs" for most of the validation rules anyway.
09:30 < kanzure> petertodd: you are needed
09:30 < bsm117532> Why do you need fraud proofs?
09:31 < kanzure> you need inclusion proofs, or the proof of non-inclusion at least
09:32 < bsm117532> UTXO set commitments give you proof of non-inclusion of transactions.
09:32 < bsm117532> Standard SPV gives you proof of inclusion
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09:32 < bsm117532> At least, I can query a full node to obtain Merkle proofs of both.
09:33 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-May/012715.html
09:33 < kanzure> https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-core-dev/2015-12-28/?msg=56907496&page=2
09:33 < kanzure> https://s3.amazonaws.com/peter.todd/bitcoin-wizards-13-10-17.log
09:33 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-June/012773.html
09:33 < kanzure> https://petertodd.org/2016/state-machine-consensus-building-blocks
09:33 < kanzure> yeah there's no good overview of all the ways that spv is broken, sorry
09:33 < bsm117532> *sigh* I guess I had better read petertodd's tome... :-/
09:34 < bsm117532> kanzure: I'm trying to write one.  ;-)
09:34 < bsm117532> Thanks for the links, I knew I could depend on you.  ;-)
09:34 < kanzure> ugh
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09:51 < bsm117532> petertodd mentions "anti-replay use-cases like using the UTXO set for key rotation".  Anyone know what this is or have a link?
09:52 < bsm117532> I think he's talking about keybase...
09:53 < kanzure> bsm117532: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2016/fraud-proofs-petertodd/
09:53 < katu_> kanzure: oh, i thought it was some zksnark trick in place already :( if its online thats ... lame
09:53 < katu_> for spv anyway
09:54 < kanzure> which thing did you mistake for a zksnark trick?
09:54 < katu_> no need for fraud proofs. obviously my understanding of utxo commitment as a blackbox was rather incorrect
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09:56 < katu_> kanzure: i model utxo+spv on the naive kiss implementation. where whole utxo is stamped every few days. spv does still need to download the whole set + set of block headers since then
09:57 < katu_> but it would be generally "fairly lightweight"
09:57 < katu_> in for casual user who wants the increased security anyway.
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10:08 < bsm117532> The underlying assumption of petertodd's MMR post is that recently created outputs are more likely to be spent "soon" than older outputs.  (thus he essentially uses a FIFO for the UTXO set)
10:09 < bsm117532> I seriously doubt this assumption.  I'd think the correlation would be weak at best.  Any idea how I can prove or disprove that with easily googleable data?
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10:13 < bsm117532> I guess one way is to compare transactions per day https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions to transactions per day excluding long chains https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-chains-longer-than-10 which indicates about 36% are recently created.
10:13 < katu_> depends how much is "depends". theres definitely a volume trend concerning closer inputs. i'm afraid you'll ahve to plot it yourself.
10:13 < katu_> you're a professional blogger, doing these graphs is your job :)
10:13 < bsm117532> (Assuming the chains are "recent" -- which is another assumption onto itself...)
10:13 < bsm117532> Ha!  Am not katu_!!! :-P
10:15 < bsm117532> I write software, and occasionally papers...
10:17 < katu_> bsm117532: it's a similiar problem to generational gc.
10:18 < katu_> you can make assumptions all you want, then somebody runs a program, or particular bitcoin service, and it just tremples over your fancy assumptions. you just overfitted past trends on the model.
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10:19 < katu_> thats why gen gc are adaptively self-tuning. any such assumptions wrt coin age in utxo would need to be as well.
10:24 < kanzure> bsm117532: i think this is more relevant http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2016/fraud-proofs-petertodd/
10:27 < kanzure> also, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/future-of-spv-tech/
10:27 < kanzure> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t0bSZj5b66xBdW7xrjHlcvfqYAbTaQDB4-_T0Jvs3T4/edit#heading=h.5lm45oa6kuri
10:28  * bsm117532 reads
10:29 < bsm117532> katu_: what are "generational gc"?
10:35 < katu_> bsm117532: infant mortality hypothesis
10:36 < katu_> theres always some, but its impossible to paint trends over time. it can be 20%, it can be 70%, 50% over long term average. i cant imagine being easy to optimize for dynamic adjustments to the variablity of infant mortality rate.
10:36 < bsm117532> Yeah katu_. :-/  I don't like this assumption.
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12:54 < Taek> :q
12:55 < Taek> oops
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13:03 < bsm117532> I can't quit you Taek
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14:50 < kanzure> "The 'majority illusion' in social networks" http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0147617#sec002
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15:44 < JackH> https://interledger.org/ is quite interesting
15:44 < JackH> anyone has more substantial info on what they do?
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15:52 < bsm117532> I've been to a meeting or two...
15:53 < bsm117532> Best to ask the blockstream guys if they've made any progress getting them to use their sidechain mechanism.
15:55 < pigeons> JackH: they are on w3c irc and their mailing list is quite active. bsm they dont seem interested in sidechains.
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15:58 < TD-Linux> they were also at IETF in the LEDGER BoF
15:58 < TD-Linux> they are basically "transactions without a blockchain"
15:58 < TD-Linux> where you trust the bank to hold funds to prevent double spends
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15:59 < TD-Linux> it is unclear how it would interoperate with bitcoin without a trusted third party
15:59 < bsm117532> If they've ignored blockstream, they've failed to realize why banks haven't done this in the last 50 years.
16:00 < bsm117532> I don't think this project will get very far.
16:00 < bsm117532> (I'm on their mailing list too -- and haven't seen anything worthwhile)
16:00 < TD-Linux> bsm117532, I was at the LEDGER BoF and said something to the same effect, though not so much ignoring blockstream as bitcoin in general
16:00 < pigeons> my opinion is they are interested in doing the minimum to push through their already formed idea as a standard, more than actually doing an open development process
16:01 < bsm117532> Well, they had a meeting in NYC and a couple folks from Blockstream were there, which I was excited to see.  I excitedly tried to influence them that "prove to me something about the state of your ledger" was the only way to go.
16:01 < pigeons> which is fair, they want to see something completed and they did the work
16:01 < bsm117532> I think they had 3 other competing proposals.  It became a political quagmire.  (Go figure, W3C)
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16:25 < JackH> I just saw a picture on their site that shows both banks and crypto in a flow of funds
16:26 < JackH> which is why I thought it was maybe going to be a sidechain of some sorts
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17:23 < bsm1175321> JackH: I think the idea is a very good one, in the sidechains model: each chain is a light client towards the other.  But alas that's not what they're doing.
17:24 < bsm1175321> If you read my probing this morning, there are still a lot of unsolved "light client" problems on Bitcoin.  (UTXO set commitments, fraud proofs, etc)
17:25 < bsm1175321> I have no idea why anyone would "trust" that someone else's ledger is internally consistent, and then put funds on it.  That just doesn't make any sense at all.  It's what makes fractional reserve a la Mt. Gox so easy to pull off.
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