--- Log opened Sat Aug 06 00:00:18 2016
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00:29 < Peter_R_> This weak block discussion sounds a lot like subchains: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/resources/subchains.pdf
00:30 < Peter_R_> Visual explaination: https://bitco.in/forum/threads/subchains-and-other-applications-of-weak-blocks.584/#post-7246
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00:46 <@gmaxwell> Oh plagerist drive by
00:47 <@gmaxwell> For those who don't know, I described weakblocks in extensive detail to PeterR in a private email conversation that he was kind enough to post to bitcoin-dev
00:47 <@gmaxwell> he had a real hard time understand the idea, so I explained it several times
00:48 <@gmaxwell> Then he had the nerve to write an academic paper on the subject renaming it, and dishonestly misattributing it.
00:48 <@gmaxwell> Ashame: the illustrations in his paper were quite well done.-- too bad so much talent is wasted on a person who is completely devoid of integrity.
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00:49 <@gmaxwell> Figured that would work.
00:49 <@gmaxwell> Peter_R_: You're not welcome here. You are a dispiciable and dishonest person.
00:49 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.143.229.84] by gmaxwell
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00:50 <@gmaxwell> ( the email thread, for reference, http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3  )
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00:51 <@gmaxwell> I'm tired of being chased out of a channel I created by PeterR and his toadies and socks.
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02:34 < tunafizz> damnit. did a paper on bitcoin last year, didn't know I could just have you guys write it for me...
02:34 < tunafizz>  would have saved me hours of effort and taking the time to learn the technicals of btc
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02:37 < sipa> tunafizz: but then you wouldn't have learned as much :)
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08:12 < bsm1175321> I'm very dismayed that gmaxwell is so bitter.  I spoke with Peter_R and he expressed nothing but respect for gmaxwell.  Both Peter_R and I are here largely because gmaxwell intellegently engaged us and patiently answered questions when we first showed up in -wizards.  I don't want to have to pick sides in someone else's fight.
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08:23 < brg444> I had to log in to address this previous comment ^^
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08:24 < brg444> that you would even suggest Peter R is acting in good faith and with genuine intentions shows you are unfortunately out of touch with his entire shenanigans throughout the last few years
08:25 < brg444> him singing the praise of Greg isn't something worth giving him credit for when he spent the better part of the last year making spiteful back handed comments on him
08:27 < kanzure> and why would it matter whether someone praises gmaxwell? that's completely irrelevant.
08:27 < pigeons> let's take this somewhere else so i can tell bsm1175321 how full of crap that is. Its much more than that email exchange. Its pathological and insidious and persistent and dark and gross.
08:28 < brg444> Peter has rallied a great amount of malicious individuals and fueled constant character assassination toward various contributors to the ecosystem.
08:29 < brg444> Sorry I know this is off-topic so I'll leave it at that... but let's not be so easily deceived by somehow who's made a habit out of manipulating people
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08:51 < bsm1175321> I really don't want to be involved.  I'm an editor for his journal, and I feel I can do good that way, independent of this drama.
08:52 < kanzure> perhaps instead of highlighting what you perceive to be bitterness, you should consider the downsides to working with those who are academically dishonest (why would you want to work for "his" journal under those circumstances? wat?)
08:53 < Taek> easy guys
08:53 < kanzure> s/"his" journal/"his journal"/ i guess
08:59 < bsm1175321> I honestly haven't tried to evaluate it, and don't have an opinion.  The weak blocks/xthin is in my opinion premature optimization.  It's valuable in the short term but doesn't solve the fundamental problem: a chain is a single-writer model, and there are multiple writers.  (Hence my work on braids)
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09:02 < Taek> I'm not sure what work is currently being done on weak blocks for Bitcoin, but from a theoretical perspective weak blocks are a lot less far out than braids. They are definitely lower hanging fruit, and provide some tangible advantages
09:07 < bsm1175321> I agree Taek.  I'm not opposed to other people working on them, but have chosen to put my efforts elsewhere... ;-)
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09:07 < bsm1175321> Isn't this the same as "compact block relay" which is going in to core?
09:10 < kanzure> see links in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-08-05.log (short answer: compact blocks are not the only idea you are conflating here)
09:12 < bsm1175321> Ah I see kanzure
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09:22 < bsm1175321> Even with both compact blocks and weak blocks, there will still be orphans.
09:23 < bsm1175321> And selfish mining will still work.
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09:40 < bsm1175321> FWIW, The Subchains paper has not been submitted to Ledger. (I just checked) If it were, I would do my best in the role of editor to ensure that proper attribution was made.
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14:45 < midnightmagic> bsm1175321: In all the time I've watched, read, and seen (hand-drawn comics included) there has never been any respect whatsoever, almost right from the beginning, from him. He is showing you a facet of his character, and showing everyone else something else entirely. Seriously. The guy drew a hand-drawn un-funny animation of "someone" in core getting squished to death. With blood. By big
14:45 < midnightmagic> blocks. He makes statements which are cruel, tolerates and thereby encourages criminal behaviour on the part of sycophants who follow him around, and makes lopsided and false comments about the ability, intention, and morals of people who disagree with him. Consider the possibility that it is likely he just doesn't want to lose what support he has in the form of folks like yourself by
14:45 < midnightmagic> giving you reasons to doubt his character. But woe be unto ye if you get on his bad side. Don't say nobody warned you.
14:50 < sipa> bsm1175321: compact blocks is a change purely between two individual peers on the network, exploiting the fact that the receiver of a block already knows most of the transactions anyway
14:50 < sipa> bsm1175321: weak blocks is a change where miners announce partial PoW solutions with attached data to make the network know and validate ahead of time what they are working on
14:51 < sipa> they interact insofar that weak blocks can use compact block protocol to be relayed as well... but it goes much further
14:51 < sipa> as compact blocks is about individual transactions; with weak blocks often a full block can be completely validated by the network ahead of time
14:52 < bsm1175321> sipa: It seems rather unlikely that between a weak block and a regular block, no new transactions appear, no?
14:52 < sipa> bsm1175321: miners have no incentive to include new transactions that they don't know the network hasn't already validated
14:53 < sipa> unless they are doing a selfish mining attack of course, which they always can
14:53 < sipa> the idea behind weak blocks is that finding a weak block grants you a right to tell the network what you're working on, but also what you soon will be working on
14:54 < sipa> other miners have an incentive to switch to the block you've announced to be working on as well
14:55 < sipa> and indeed, it does not and cannot prevents orphans... but under non-adverserial circumstances it can make block propagation independent from the block size
14:55 < bsm1175321> Interesting.  Has that been the plan all along?
14:55 < sipa> the effect from just latency due to geographical distribution can't be prevented and will always be a centralization pressure
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14:56 < sipa> but for example FIBRE relays blocks now often within 10ms of what the speed of light can do
14:56 < bsm1175321> sipa: Leave that to me...with braids.
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14:57 < sipa> bsm1175321: i am not convinced that braids can solve this, especially when there are double spends in the network
14:57 < sipa> bsm1175321: but i encourage research about it!
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14:57 < bsm1175321> sipa: That's a good point.  Adversarial double-spends can simulate the effect of orphans, I'm aware of this.
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14:58 < bsm1175321> I'm working on an alternative mechanism to resolve double-spends as a consequence.
14:58 < sipa> in any case, i don't think we will have one magic bullet solution for this
14:58 < bsm1175321> e.g. an adversarial miner could broadcast a spend to all other miners, and mine a double-spend himself, to force other miners to fork.
14:59 < sipa> have you talked with aviv zohar?
15:00 < bsm1175321> Not recently, I think he was at the HK Scaling Bitcoin though.
15:00 < sipa> he was not
15:00 < bsm1175321> Then no...why?
15:00 < sipa> his research group has been working on graph-based block chain ideas for a few years now
15:01 < sipa> a student of his presented in HK, i believe
15:01 < bsm1175321> It was Yonatan at scaling...
15:01 < sipa> right
15:01 < bsm1175321> He disappeared shortly after our talks, I only talked to him breifly :-/
15:01 < sipa> i think you should try to collaborate with them
15:02 < bsm1175321> Perhaps, have they made any progress since their "Inclusive" paper?
15:03 < sipa> i've talked to aviv at financial cryptography in february
15:03 < sipa> i don't know the details, but i'm sure they are working on more than what was presented
15:04 < bsm1175321> I gave an online talk with my latest results which you can find linked here: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4srtfs/braiding_the_blockchain_bob_mcelrath_phd_if_two/
15:04 < bsm1175321> Basically I found a "fastest possible block time" with my cohorts algorithm.  (which is also new since I talked with you at Scaling)
15:05 < bsm1175321> I'm hoping to have an alternative double-spend algorithm, as well as a "merging" algorithm by Milan...
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16:07 < midnightmagic> For what it's worth, I've already banned him and explicitly told him, like six times now, they he's not welcome here; so, by logging in from another host, he's ban-evading. (Perhaps unwittingly, but he at least knows that I kickbanned him already.)
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17:11 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/domiwoe/status/762057993840168960
17:11 < yoleaux> @kanzure Do you know to which paper about SC in Solidity Boneh is referring to in the beginning? (@domiwoe)
17:13 < sipa> SC?
17:18 < kanzure> smart contracts? dunno.
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17:24 < domwoe> yeah
17:24 < domwoe> I'm referring to that: "There was a paper that came out of this with ethereum smart contracts. So did elaine shi. They were using the python version of the scripting language. Ours is the javascript version of the scripting language."
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17:57 < pigeons> I bet maybe https://mc2-umd.github.io/ethereumlab/docs/serpent_tutorial.pdf , remember Serpent is the "python [-like] version" and Solidity the "javascript [-like] version"
17:58 < pigeons> they have a "go-like version too, Mutans or somethin. I guess people only use solidity now
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18:20 < domwoe> That's the python/serpent paper by Elaine Shi he mentions
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18:28 < kanzure> unfortunately that elaine shi paper was mentioned by me, not dan
18:28 < kanzure> although he recognized it, so *shrug*
18:30 < domwoe> ah ok. But "Ours is the javascript version of the scripting language." refers to Boneh's group
18:31 < kanzure> yes that's right
18:31 < domwoe> hmm maybe it's not yet published
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19:15 < rhett> hi wizards
19:16 < rhett> Why doesn't someone do what ethereum classic did for a larger blocksize bitcoin?
19:16 < rhett> instead of the bitcoin XT approach
19:17 < rhett> give everyone who currently has bitcoin equivalent bitcoin XL on a new forked blockchain, and then list it on an exchange?
19:17 < sipa> that's what classic/xt would have done if it actually got adopted
19:18 < rhett> I thought classic was trying to write blocks on the bitcoin blockchain
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19:18 < sipa> a hard fork causes a fork... afterwards there are two chains
19:18 < rhett> right, like ethereum classic
19:18 < sipa> the only difference is who gets to claim the name 'bitcoin'
19:19 < sipa> but there is no technical difference here
19:19 < rhett> maybe I'm confused.  With ETH/ ETC, there are two chains.  ETC won't likely "die" completely even if its market cap goes way down
19:20 < rhett> I thought bitcoin XT was trying to write blocks on the bitcoin blockchain
19:20 < rhett> and competing for block writing
19:20 < rhett> the ETC approach doesn't care what ETH does
19:20 < rhett> ETC is just an altcoin
19:20 < rhett> and it trades on an exchange
19:20 < rhett> just like litecoin or dogecoin
19:21 < sipa> i would argue that the new 'ETH' is an altcoin, and ETC is just the new name for what ETH used to be
19:21 < sipa> yes, you're confused
19:21 < sipa> there is zero difference between the two approaches
19:21 < rhett> so, where can I buy bitcoin XT?
19:21 < sipa> xt never caused a fork
19:22 < sipa> because it didn't get adopted by miners
19:22 < sipa> there is no such thing as 'writing in the bitcoin blockchain'; after a fork, there are two completely independent chains
19:22 < rhett> so there is 100% difference between the two approaches
19:22 < sipa> there would be no difference if XT or Bitcoin Classic would have been adopted
19:23 < rhett> so there is 100% difference between the two approaches
19:23 < sipa> no
19:23 < sipa> what XT was _trying_ to do is exactly the same thing as what ETH _did_
19:23 < rhett> can't you make an altcoin with like 2 miners?
19:24 < dgenr8> in the last 2 hours BIP109 has 4.2% of hash power. but it is defined not to fork with less that 75%
19:24 < sipa> sure, it would be very insecure though
19:25 < rhett> ok, so ETC started out very insecure.  The main differences were social ones, not necessary technical
19:25 < rhett> let people speculate on an insecure altcoin
19:25 < sipa> yes, the difference is that for ETH/ETC, a fork actually happened, and despite all claims that everyone would switch to the new ETH, that was wrong... and ETC actually got some traction
19:26 < dgenr8> sipa: how do you feel about it? you mention quite often that "100% agreement is required to fork"
19:28 < bsm1175321> The one thing the ETH/ETC fiasco taught me was that there is a profit motive for exchanges to enable trading on both sides of the fork, and it has nothing to do with technical merits of the fork.  ANY hard fork which creates two tradeable coins can cause a 50% split of mining power, and effective destruction of the currency.
19:29 < domwoe> Although it would be much harder to continue a minority fork in bitcoin because the difficulty gets only re-adjusted every 2000 blocks or so
19:29 < sipa> plus bitcoin actually gets used for payments
19:29 < rhett> exactly bsm117532 I think someone must do it with bitcoin soon
19:29 < bsm1175321> rhett I think you misunderstood me.
19:29 < rhett> not that it will necessarily be good for bitcoin
19:30 < rhett> but good for the exchanges
19:30 < sipa> rhett: i don't understand why you think so. Classic and XT and Unlimited _tried_ to do exactly that in bitcoin
19:30 < rhett> and coin pumpers
19:30 < sipa> you seem to think that what happened with ETH was somehow different
19:31 < rhett> sipa: it was different because kraken, poloniex, soon coinbase email customers and say, "hey you have some free ETC"
19:31 < sipa> rhett: no, it was different because miners actually went along with the fork
19:31 < sipa> rhett: the fact that exchanges then chose to also list the minority fork was a logical consequence
19:31 < rhett> imagine if they just emailed everyone and said, "hey you have some free BTC-XL"
19:32 < rhett> bitcoin ran fine on 1% of the mining power it has today
19:32 < sipa> that's irrelevant
19:32 < rhett> coins with low mining power are just worth less
19:32 < sipa> that's completely unrelated
19:32 < sipa> a minority chain with 1% would be trivially attacked by the 99%
19:33 < sipa> plus it would greatly undermine bitcoin's value proposition
19:33 < rhett> they are separate coins
19:33 < rhett> why doesn't dogecoin get trivially attacked?
19:33 < sipa> doesn't prevent attacking
19:33 < sipa> because it's a different proof of work function
19:33 < sipa> bitcoin miners can't be used to attack dogecoin
19:33 < bsm1175321> Dogecoin did.  They implmented merge-mining with litecoin to mitigate it.
19:33 < kanzure> sipa: pool hopping does cause problems for some scrypt-based altcoins
19:34 < sipa> kanzure: yes, but a scrypt miner can't be used to attack a sha-pow chain
19:34 < kanzure> (and other hash functions, of course)
19:34 < rhett> So, if the fork changes the work function, but uses the same keypairs?
19:35 < sipa> rhett: that's possible
19:35 < dgenr8> rhett: if a bitcoin fork actually does try to do what ETC did, you'll know it
19:35 < sipa> rhett: but then you can't claim to be the 'successor' to bitcoin anymore
19:35 < rhett> i'd want to get in early if the coin pumpers are any good
19:35 < sipa> well good luck :)
19:36 < dgenr8> sipa: how do you feel about relying on close ties with centralized mining? necessary evil?
19:36 < kanzure> dgenr8: how do you feel about asking loaded questions? :)
19:38 < dgenr8> the only guy I've seen talk about an "inspired derivative" of bitcoin is Reid Hoffman
19:39 < kanzure> sipa: perhaps exchanges that want to capitalize on the belief of users like rhett would be better off without a hard-fork at all. instead, they could list other symbols for trading prior to and without any fork, by holding the private keys themselvs. then the exchanges would be responsible for not double spending against themselves.
19:40 < kanzure> *themselves
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19:44 < kanzure> sipa: also, from a safety perspective, it is much better for exchanges to list something like that, rather than running an altcoin source code (for example: see how cryptsy was hax0red via remote backdoor in one of the altcoin implementations that they installed on to a shared server). other safety benefits include not blowing up the network in difficult-to-illustrate ways, or not needing to spend money on R&D for anti-replay tech things.
19:47 < sipa> kanzure: ha! starts to sound like how buying virtual mining contracts is sometimes more profitable than buying actual hardware :)
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19:49 < kanzure> sipa: nope, no profitability claims were being made :)
19:50 < kanzure> sipa: and it's entirely possible for highly-centralized constructions to be profitable, regardless of infringement on underlying principles.   anyway, the exchanges could choose to use their fee earnings to fund deployment of.. uh.. whatever it is that they think they want..
19:50 < kanzure> *fee earnings from that new listed symbol (in particular)
19:51 < dgenr8> sipa: will blockstream introduce sidechains that mix transferred BTC with generated native tokens?
19:52 < kanzure> i think others have already introduced that (drivejobs etc)
19:55 < dgenr8> sipa: how do you feel about censorship?
19:56 < sipa> dgenr8: i have no idea what you mean
19:56 < kanzure> dgenr8: what's up?
19:57 < sipa> by mix, do you mean coinjoin?
19:58 < dgenr8> no, i mean creating value units in coinbases or the like, and not just by incoming transfers from BTC
19:59 < sipa> native assets on a sidechain is something we're working on, yes
19:59 < sipa> not sure what you mean by mixing
20:00 < dgenr8> that the generated units are indistinguishable from or used equivalently to the incoming transferred units. ie new money supply created by and for ... someone
20:00 < sipa> well they're a different asset class than BTC
20:01 < sipa> if they're indistinguishable, you'd be creating a fractional reserve layer
20:01 < dgenr8> last week i was chatting with a ripply guy. he expressed that he would be just fine with XRP, of which his company owns half the supply, becoming the dominant crypto currency
20:02 < sipa> the amount of BTC in a sidechain must exactly match the amount pegged to it from the bitcoin chain, or you'd cause a "run on the sidechain" as the last people out would lose
20:03 < sipa> i hope that the design of sidechains makes such a thing unviable, as the pegged amounts on both sides is visible to everyone
20:03 < sipa> *are
20:05 < dgenr8> suppose the sidechain is really useful. because of improvements (that haven't been made to bitcoin). then the BTC units transferred there might be more valuable, even after dilution from money printing.
20:06 < sipa> with a 2-way peg in place the value on both sides should be identical
20:06 < sipa> or close to identical
20:07 < sipa> due to the slow transfer there may be some arbitrage possible
20:07 < dgenr8> hence my original question. will blockstream introduce sidechains that mix transferred BTC with generated native tokens?
20:07 < sipa> do you mean whether we plan to create a fraction reserve bitcoin in a sidechain? definitely not
20:08 < dgenr8> how reassuring :)
20:08 < dgenr8> hit kanzure
20:08 < dgenr8> hi
20:08 < kanzure> i know 18 forms of whatever CSW said, hitting me is ill advised
20:08 < sipa> and i hope that the design of sidechains makes that impossible for anyone else who would want to try
20:09 < sipa> at least it would have to be a transparent fractional reserve, where all users are aware of it
20:10 < kanzure> it's ot really a concern because a federated signing model is not really useful in the same way that bitcoin is currently useful. so "it would be more valuable" is possible (in terms of market price) but it's also irrelevant -- lots of highly centralized bad ideas have a high market price, who cares.
20:11 < kanzure> (and even if you strike "highly centralized" from my last message, i still think that a 10,000-signatory sidechain is still not encroaching on bitcoin value prop)
20:11 < kanzure> (and perhaps some might think 10k-signatory/functionary is highly centralized anyway, hehe)
20:12 < dgenr8> a sidechain as an altcoin that supports pegging, so pretty much the whole universe is open to it in terms of design. anyone disagree with that characterization?
20:14 < kanzure> strong disagree.   many forms of sidechain designs can be ill-advised . large chunks of universe are inaccessible from a design perspective.
20:16 < dgenr8> s/as/is
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20:36 < maaku> kanzure what CSW said is only 9 forms/schools
20:37 < maaku> And I actually am trained in them ;)
20:37 < kanzure> https://twitter.com/sarahjeong/status/744982970344235013
20:37 < kanzure> ah i see, it's not 18 of ninjutsu. very well.
20:38 < kanzure> anyway, off-topic.
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