--- Log opened Sun Sep 11 00:00:51 2016
00:22 -!- nullfxn [~nullFxn@107-147-108-164.res.bhn.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:23 -!- nullfxn [~nullFxn@107-147-108-164.res.bhn.net] has quit [Client Quit]
00:30 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ifjtzjsmeqayqxnq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:40 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-247-26.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:49 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:51 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:03 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-247-26.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
01:04 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:07 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:15 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:18 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
01:20 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:27 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:28 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:28 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)]
01:33 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:41 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@pool-173-53-94-96.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
01:43 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:53 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
01:55 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@172.56.28.4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:02 -!- kyletorpey1 [~kyle@172.56.28.241] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:02 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@172.56.28.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
02:14 -!- kyletorpey1 [~kyle@172.56.28.241] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
02:14 -!- lvns_ [~lvns@pool-100-38-50-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:37 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:40 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:42 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:42 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:49 -!- Mazz_ [~mazznilla@unaffiliated/mazznilla] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
02:52 -!- Mazz_ [~mazznilla@unaffiliated/mazznilla] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-247-26.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:52 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wcnnpkbtswihruhp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:00 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:02 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:30 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:39 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:04 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:05 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
05:12 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:17 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
05:48 -!- johntramp [~john@unaffiliated/johntramp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
05:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
05:57 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
06:06 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:09 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Excess Flood]
06:13 < vega4> In order to determine a valid blockchain  BTC uses the concept of total expected worked spent on building a given chain; that seems clear and solid; now lets put on plate the subject of Coin Age. I'm confused. It seems that Peercoin utilizes Coin Age to determine a valid history of things. I wonder. If a currency uses Proof-Of-Stake to reach consenus, what prevents an attacker to generate branches with arbitrary timestam
06:13 < vega4> is only valid for hybrid PoW/PoS mechanisms, as far as reaching consensus goes.
06:15 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
06:16 -!- johntramp [~john@175.111.102.145] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:19 -!- Samdney [~Samdney@dyn-ant666999.hawo.ipv6.uni-erlangen.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:37 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:39 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:41 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:42 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
06:49 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@159.203.193.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:59 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:06 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:11 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
07:12 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind]
07:19 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:27 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ifjtzjsmeqayqxnq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
07:34 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
07:56 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:58 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
08:11 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:17 -!- AusteritySucks [~Austerity@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:21 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:26 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: irc]
08:29 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:30 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
08:30 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:37 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
08:39 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
08:40 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:51 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:52 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:06 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:07 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:07 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
09:23 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:ecef:3dde:8b72:7391] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:33 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:40 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:46 -!- JHistone [~JHistone@cpc104808-sgyl39-2-0-cust135.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:50 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
09:51 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:08 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:36 -!- GoonClooney [uid44280@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kzybcwekibtjonlf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
10:39 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:57 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: irc]
11:22 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:30 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:32 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zqbhhstmxdcghzpb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:32 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:42 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
12:09 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:19 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:25 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:27 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
12:33 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78-11-193-195.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:34 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:37 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:ecef:3dde:8b72:7391] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
12:45 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:45 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:46 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:49 < FNinTak> Related to the sharding discussion - More efficient Proof of Space
12:49 < FNinTak> http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/333.pdf
12:50 < FNinTak> Related to sharding specifically because verifying these proofs requires non-trivial resources
12:51 < FNinTak> Either the verifier also stores the full graph (which is massive), or
12:51 < FNinTak> graph + path commitments are published and then opened; but even that is multiple MBs
12:52 < FNinTak> However, in the context of a cryptocurrency, the graph is static - So sharding verification amongst full nodes/verifiers would be very useful
12:52 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:ecef:3dde:8b72:7391] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:56 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
12:57 < vega4> related to my own question - as of now, I can answer myself that PoS currencies introduce checkpoints broadcasted from a trusted authority, therefore just creating the illusion of being distributed. I'm ok with Bitcoin's PoW and their checkpoints it would be hard enough without these hardcoded checkpoints in BTC's case.
12:59 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:02 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:10 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@pool-71-176-227-116.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:16 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
13:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-247-26.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:32 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:42 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:54 -!- Yogh [~Yogh@f36186.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
13:56 -!- Yogh [~Yogh@f36186.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:16 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:17 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:18 -!- flower [~user@96.30.80.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:19 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:37 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:38 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:39 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
14:40 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
14:40 -!- Guyver2_ is now known as Guyver2
14:43 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:44 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
14:46 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:47 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:54 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:58 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:06 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: irc]
15:10 -!- rafalsk [~pc_rafals@user-31-175-189-99.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:10 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:10 -!- rafalsk [~pc_rafals@user-31-175-189-99.play-internet.pl] has quit [Client Quit]
15:16 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
15:25 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:29 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Right I'm out!]
15:37 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:37 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78-11-193-195.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:38 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza]
15:39 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:46 -!- JHistone [~JHistone@cpc104808-sgyl39-2-0-cust135.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:48 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:51 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:51 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)]
15:55 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:56 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza]
16:11 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:29 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
16:33 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:ecef:3dde:8b72:7391] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
16:34 -!- Mazz_ [~mazznilla@unaffiliated/mazznilla] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:52 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza]
16:59 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.42] has quit []
17:17 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:19 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:22 -!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@24.35.69.143] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.5]
17:28 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:28 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:36 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wcnnpkbtswihruhp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
17:37 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:39 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
17:40 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:54 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza]
18:24 -!- gsdgdfs [~Trans@modemcable017.144-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
18:24 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:28 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
18:29 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:38 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:40 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:42 -!- Transisto2 [~Trans@modemcable017.144-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:47 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zqbhhstmxdcghzpb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
18:53 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:55 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:07 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
19:27 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:29 -!- rhett [~rhett@c-73-223-86-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:29 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:29 < rhett> Does anyone know if anything ever came of brahm cohen's idea for a proof of space coin?
19:30 < rhett> Did anyone ever work out any good proof of space algorithms?
19:39 < rhett> looks like there is burstcoin now
20:00 < Taek> burstcoin is pretty old, from what I remember it's been inactive for over a year now
20:00 < Taek> the closest thing is spacemint
20:00 < Taek> but from what I remember they still have a handful of problems to sort out
20:01 < Taek> rhett: I believe that spacemint is currenty state-of-the-art for proof of space
20:02 < rhett> thanks Taek any idea what problems burstcoin or spacemint have?
20:03 < Taek> Burstcoin most significantly had a computation-space tradeoff which I believe was significant. Aside from that, though I don't think anyone took the time to break their construction, I didn't get the impression that it would hold up to cryptanalysis
20:04 < Taek> Spacemint I think also has a computation-space tradeoff, though they've taken steps to minimize how worthwhile it might be
20:04 < Taek> From what I remember they depend on a trusted independent source of randomness, such as a NIST beacon
20:05 < Taek> I know a few of the Spacement guys pop in here every once in a while, maybe one of them can talk to you about it
20:06 < rhett> interesting, what are you working on ?
20:06 < Taek> I spend most of my time working on a decentralized cloud storage platform called Sia
20:07 < Taek> but I've also spent a fair amount of time recently on a DAG-based blockchain which I hope to speak about in the upcoming scaling bitcoin conference
20:07 < Taek> it's not quite ready to publish yet, but I'm hoping to finish it in the next few days
20:08 < Taek> I'm pretty much at the spell-check phase
20:11 < rhett> Aren't all blockchains DAGs?
20:11 < Taek> Bitcoin's blockchain is a strict subset, essentially a singly-linked list
20:12 < Taek> I've adjusted the rules so that blocks can have multiple parents, without changing any of the security assumptions
20:12 < rhett> sounds like git chain
20:13 < rhett> i wonder how sia is different form storj coin, maidsafe, or ipfs
20:13 < Taek> not quite
20:13 < rhett> checking it out
20:13 < Taek> http://forum.sia.tech/topic/107/interesting-threads
20:13 < Taek> http://forum.sia.tech/topic/21/sia-vs-storj-vs-maidsafe
20:28 < rhett> Is spacemint launched yet, or just a paper?
20:35 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:40 -!- johntramp [~john@175.111.102.145] has quit [Changing host]
20:40 -!- johntramp [~john@unaffiliated/johntramp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:48 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:48 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:49 < katu> Taek: is there actually sound of PoS system out, or is it all fluff. im not fatching proof of erasure closely anymore, so if anything changed
20:49 < katu> (last time i checked everything was just marketing crap a'la gridcoin, with the exception of maybe burst which at least tried, despite various technical flaws)
20:51 < katu> ah, sia is just contracts too, so the same as rest of the bunch.
20:58 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipwpmsuxiobilpyi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:59 < rhett> I think this is the latest update on spacemint https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint
21:13 -!- Samdney [~Samdney@dyn-ant666999.hawo.ipv6.uni-erlangen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
21:15 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.MIT.EDU] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:15 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
21:16 -!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
21:17 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:18 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:18 < FNinTak> rhett: katu: I posted a more efficient Proof-of-Space algorithm here a few hours ago
21:19 < FNinTak> which could be used in a coin like spacemint; it's an improvement on their Proof-of-Space
21:19 < rhett> neat, link FNinTak ?
21:19 < FNinTak> http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/333.pdf
21:19 < rhett> or spacemint isn't a coin yet, is it?
21:20 < FNinTak> I've talked to the author about coming around the channel, so he should be in soon
21:21 < FNinTak> Spacemint is a paper that specs out a coin yes, but afaik there are no active plans to launch it
21:22 < rhett> I wonder why not
21:23 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:23 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:26 < FNinTak> It's a non-trivial task, doesn't exactly fit in the standard academic plan
21:28 < FNinTak> though I will say their whitepaper is imo the best I've seen for a novel cryptocurrency
21:32 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:32 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:36 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:36 -!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:38 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
21:43 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:43 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:49 < Taek> katu: Sia derives consensus from proof of wrok
21:49 < Taek> *work
21:50 < Taek> to the best of my knowledge, there is no proof-of-stake nor proof-of-storage (PoS is ambiguous) system that is widely accepted as having security comprable to bitcoin
21:50 < katu> FNinTak: PoSpace in and itself isnt that hard
21:50 < katu> graph pebbling is unnecesary complication in fact
21:51 < katu> FNinTak: trouble is what to do with it next. you usually get inevitable NaS
21:51 < Taek> maybe we should call it consensus-by-storage.
21:51 < Taek> given that there are useful applications to proving that you have storage capacity outside of forming decentralized consensus
21:52 < katu> and if you want to store useful data, while also giving "mining" rewards for proving you store some data, you get nasty incentives
21:54 < Taek> the biggest problem there in my opinion is that there's no way to distinguish useful data from computationally generated data
21:54 < katu> Taek: why theres not
21:54 < katu> thats task of PoSpace
21:54 < Taek> encrypted useful data is indistinguishable from fully random data
21:54 < katu> simple arlgorithm is simple hard to reverse bilinear mapping
21:55 < Taek> and data generated via H(i || secret key) is also indistinguishable from fully random data
21:55 < Taek> if I am tasked with storing data that I know how to generate, I can cheat the storage and just generate what is needed when asked to build a proof
21:56 < katu> Taek: again, this is solved via multiple algorithms
21:56 < katu> they are not obvious, but its not a hard problem
21:56 < Taek> do you have a link to a paper?
21:56 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:56 < katu> no. but you're familiar how bilinear mapping work?
21:57 < katu> have bilinear mapping function as one way hash. use that in burstcoin instead of their silly hash method, stretch the result into staggers
21:57 < Taek> I am as of looking at the wikipedia page on it. heh
21:58 < katu> in your proof you then include collapsed merkle path to the chunk you found (with winning "difficulty"). it must of course refer previous OP_STORE, which, when encrypted with same bilinear mapping proves you had this chunk stored (after prolonged computation of it)
21:59 < Taek> ok. I don't fully understand. What data does the prover end up storing?
22:02 < katu> wait, i might have a writeup somewhere
22:15 -!- Z3 [Z3r0@c-75-74-81-94.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:23 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@pool-71-176-227-116.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:27 -!- anon616 [~nobody@ec2-52-207-226-93.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:29 -!- anon616 [~nobody@ec2-52-207-226-93.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:37 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:37 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:38 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-octcwqzbgtaykkom] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:47 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:48 < katu> Taek: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/katlogic/e88caab984bfd1f59fa80015248f9417/raw/9729847c8132892278ae323030a6fef88b4a882f/gistfile1.txt
22:48 < katu> had to write it from scratch
22:48 < katu> its still probably incomprehensible
22:51 < Taek> reading now
22:54 < Taek> ok, so it's difficult to cheat b/c when storing data, you have to search for E, which is computationally feasible but not cheap
22:54 < Taek> to cheat, you would have to search for E many times, and storing is cheaper than doing so much searching
22:54 < Taek> is what I've gathered
22:56 < katu> yes. you can either store 2^24 Es, or bruteforce *each attempt*. note that this algorithm is not efficient enough for initial stores to perform realistically.
22:57 < Taek> thanks for taking the time to write it up :)
22:57 < katu> real world algorithm would share Es between OP_STOREs with different RIs, thus multiplying the 'stored' factor by more than 2^24
22:58 < katu> (that is, the inverted map would be shared for chunks with different RIs)
23:00 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:02 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:13 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:13 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@172.56.30.241] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:21 -!- Z3r0 [Z3r0@c-75-74-81-94.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:23 -!- Z3 [Z3r0@c-75-74-81-94.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:25 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:27 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipwpmsuxiobilpyi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
23:35 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@pool-71-176-227-116.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:39 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:40 -!- Z3r0 [Z3r0@c-75-74-81-94.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:41 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:42 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:47 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:59 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tikcdjhdukaomreo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:59 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.38.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
--- Log closed Mon Sep 12 00:00:52 2016