--- Log opened Fri Sep 16 00:00:55 2016
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01:21 < Taek> [01:21:16] <sipa> that means that for 20000$ i can probably have the chain reorged if i don't like that my competitor got a name instead of me
01:21 < Taek> That almost seems to solve your problem for you though
01:21 < Taek> what if you made it so that instead of paying to register, you dumped work in to the chain
01:21 < Taek> and, you could steal a competing name by dumping more work
01:22 < Taek> of course, that means that the amount of work going into the chain is probably going to be unstable, which is also not great for security
01:22 < Taek> but you've more or less removed the currency, because work becomes the currency
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01:22 < Taek> I've been thinking about a pie-in-the-sky alternate method for doing naming
01:22 < Taek> which would be based on a huge WoT framework
01:22 < Taek> the nice thing about WoT is that it can be relative
01:23 < Taek> so that my DNS might actually look different than someone else's DNS, but that's cool because 'coin.com' might mean something different to me than what it might mean to someone who collects physical coins
01:24 < Taek> and it means that things like bitcoin.com and bitcoin.org are no longer owned by a single person
01:24 < Taek> rather the collective decides which website gets the honor of owning bitcoin.com, and if they do unpopular things they can lose the title
01:24 < Taek> This is more useful I think though with respect to copyright
01:25 < Taek> You can have this sort of decentralized aribtration for deciding how to split ownership on a video where one person covers a song that another person wrote
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03:07 < kabaum> amiller: Re compact SPV proofs. Discussing http://popeller.io/index.php/2016/09/15/compact-spv-proofs/ above, you said that paper http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf "solves this problem". What problem are you refering to? Are you referring to the problem of reducing the success probability of fake proofs using early lucky blocks? The security parameter, m, in the paper is essentially what "limiting the maximum skip size"
03:07 < kabaum> does in the sidechains paper. It also seems like the paper assumes all proofs start in the genesis block, while SPV proofs in the sidechains paper originates from the block containing the SPV-locked output, or did I misunderstand that.
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12:03 < kanzure> rusty: "credit may be fundamentally more convenient than cash".   er, maybe, but you still end up with consensus problems in credit networks i think.
12:04 < rusty> kanzure: sure, but it also implies people don't want bitcoin per-se, so I just acknowledged that contribution and left it there.
12:07 < kanzure> oh, not something to do with actual design of credit system
12:07 < kanzure> well that's boring
12:09 < cjd> does that mean like credit *cards* are convenient (hint: they are)
12:09 < cjd> or does it mean borrowing is convenient?
12:10 < cjd> or does it mean that having money in a system where if it's stolen you can make a bunch of phone calls and get it charged back - possibly causing a loss to the bank - is convenient ?
12:10 < kanzure> yea apparently it was a "oh credit cards might be convenient" comment (which is fine-- just off-topic ish) rather than a comment about credit
12:11 < cjd> because I agree with 1 and 3 and a little bit 2 but only under certain conditions
12:12 < kanzure> i think you end up with weird risk assessment issues and information asymmetries where not all data is available to make a good decision
12:12 < kanzure> and weird risk reconciliation model issues
12:13 < cjd> for #3 ?
12:13 < cjd> yeah I guess
12:15 < cjd> I live in Paris and here the state has a parallel system to the anglosphere and part of that system is that they really want to know where you spend money - so they built a parallel system to VISA and each card supports both systems and inside of this parallel system the cost of executing a transaction is close to 0 - so everyone uses credit cards everywhere
12:16 < cjd> but another part of the system is that they don't lend you money you can't afford to pay back, predatory banks just don't exist here
12:16 < kanzure> all transactions are replicated to both systems?
12:16 < cjd> no, if you use a french card in a french card reader, the transaction is settled in france
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12:17 < cjd> so the state gets to watch you and the cost of the transaction is like < 0.20
12:18 < cjd> you can negotiate transaction fees so it's not clear what they cost but at the grocery store the limit for using a card is 1 euro
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12:21 < kanzure> re: sub-satoshi payments, i think it might be possible to round up and round down to the nearest satoshi, and have both parties to a payment channel agree to only close the channel once the state reflects the current sub-satoshi balance (which is not presently consensus-enforced).
12:22 < kanzure> when someone closes a channel prematurely with the wrong balance (such as through the normal course of a payment channel), you would no longer open a channel in the future because they stole a satoshi from you [note this assumes that you are not doing anonymous payment channels....]
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12:32 < katu> credit vs cash, keynesian vs austrian
12:32 < katu> i dont see any merit issues on protocol level, but economically the differences are huge
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12:40 < rusty> kanzure: currently tiny outputs are eliminated from txs and given to fees.  You can't really penalize someone for unilateral close though.
12:40 < kanzure> yes my penalization was outside the transaction system there
12:40 < kanzure> but also, if tiny outputs are eliminated, that is also problematic :)
12:41 < kanzure> doesn't need to be a tiny output i suppose, just a tiny change in an output
12:47 < kanzure> it could be a soft-fork rule where that tiny difference in amounts between the two outputs would have to reflect some rules and data attached to the transaction beyond the output amounts.
12:49 < kanzure> er, nevermind.
12:55 < kanzure> yeah i must have slipped into colored coin land there.
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14:18 < petertodd> midnightmagic: file path isn't a concern here, as the scheme never hashes it in a way that can be discovered without bruteforcing all contents of the tree; that's what the "all-or-nothing" transform is about
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14:20 < midnightmagic> petertodd: I was thinking more about selective revelation of data like the filepath..?
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14:22 < midnightmagic> or at least the option, I guess.
14:22 < midnightmagic> perhaps I need to actually read more instead of assuming.
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14:23 < petertodd> midnightmagic: I'm not trying to achive relevation of anything; that's too complex, better leave it to git instead
14:23 < petertodd> I just want to be able to extract a timestmap for the contents of a file
14:28 < midnightmagic> I was reading the comments in one of your source files and I noticed you made mention of directory information leakage.
14:29 < petertodd> yes, by that I mean the structure of the directory trees
14:30 < petertodd> guessing the names of files shouldn't be any easier than guessing their contents
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14:30 < petertodd> hmm, actually, come to think of it that's incorrect: no guessing the names of files should be impossible, as I don't hash them anywhere in the scheme
14:31 < petertodd> (git trees have a well-defined ordering already)
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