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09:20 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tmYyj3dK7U
09:20 < yoleaux> Computing class polynomials with the Chinese Remainder Theorem - YouTube
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17:32 < dgenr8> SPV what proofs?  SPV candy-corn proofs?  SPV is a technique, not a statement.
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18:37 < Taek> e0, andytoshi, other: if we were to substantially reduce the maximum transaction size, at what point does it become problematic for TumbleBit/MimbleWimble/other?
18:38 < Taek> waxwing: what about for joinmarket?
18:44 < Taek> fluffypony: what about for Monero? I know it's a different blockchain but still useful to know.
18:46 < kanzure> you want smaller than schnorr signatures?
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18:52 < Taek> no but for Jute it makes some things a lot easier if I can cap the block size at 10kb or even 5kb. I'm not certain how many things get ruined by that limit though
18:52 < Taek> there's a tradoff between confirmation time, throughput speed limit, and block size.
18:53 < Taek> High throughput speed limit = high block size + low confirmation time
18:53 < Taek> low throughput speed limit = low block size + low confirmation time || high block size + high confirmation time
18:55 < katu> Taek: can speak only for joinmarket, not much would change there. the participant pool size is limited roughly to hundreds, after that the likelyhood of one bailing is getting too high.
18:57 < kanzure> Taek: if you strip away most of the features, such as reducing the number of transaction types to one, you could probably get away with a single signature per block and some low-bit account representation or something..
18:58 < Taek> kanzure: hopefully won't need to go that far, but I guess for a lot of things schnorr combining gets you a lot of wiggle room.
18:59 < Taek> I'm not sure that would apply to MW though, since that uses a different type of cryptography
19:00 < katu> why force the block size btw, to enforce tree fanout?
19:01 < katu> s/tree/dag/
19:01 < Taek> Security in Jute benefits *substantially* from a very small block time. 1 second is okay, but things don't get really friendly until like 0.5 seconds
19:02 < Taek> (will be sharing full writeup tonight - just 1 more paragraph to touch up)
19:02 < Taek> At a 1 second block time, 10kb blocks means 6MB every 10 minutes
19:02 < Taek> Which, I think is pretty reasonable given that Jute gives you a lot of scalability benefits
19:03 < Taek> But it's 12MB if you drop to a 0.5 second block time, or 24MB if you decide that you want both a 0.5 second block time and 20kb blocks
19:03 < Taek> and that's probably too much
19:03 < katu> still cant really figure out why hard caps would be of consequences wrt block time (other than verify latencies), but will wait for the writeup.
19:04 < Taek> you don't want an attacker to be able to start throwing 1MB blocks at the network every 5 seconds, most full nodes would not be able to keep up. That I think is the only reason.
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19:05 < katu> these blocks have equal chance of confirming like anything else, dont they?
19:06 < Taek> as long as all nodes could keep up with the throughput, their probability of confirming would be 100%
19:06 < katu> in that case, dos is prevented by perbyte fees.
19:06 < Taek> that's potentially an option
19:06 < Taek> I also don't think it would be too difficult to have a difficulty-based-on-blocksize modification, which would be really beneficial for enthusiests who might want to mine all of their own transactions
19:07 < Taek> I think it would be reasonable that a 500 byte txn could be mined by a $200 miner within an hour
19:07 < Taek> solo-mining, no pool necessary!
19:07 < katu> just take long term mean average and allow +5% on top of that
19:08 < katu> not sure who wrote that proposal, but i like the natural simplicity of it
19:08 < sipa> long term mean is pretty dangerous
19:08 < sipa> it allows miners to stuff their own blocks to pumo up the size
19:14 < katu> sipa: costs fees
19:14 < katu> sipa: also, only for the duration of the pool actually doing it. once they stop, the average returns to normal.
19:15 < Taek> what decides how high the fees are?
19:15 < katu> this operates on the assumption that mempool has always something on offer. fee cost = they have to sacrifice legit mempool txes in favor of their phony ones.
19:15 < Taek> ah
19:16 < Taek> it's just a one-time cost though right? Once you've pushed the average up you've now got room for the mempool txns and for your own fluff?
19:16 < Taek> I guess it depends on your hashrate
19:17 < katu> Taek: the average is there to establish the cutoff - which is necessary for fee market.
19:17 < katu> balooning the capacity artificially indeed bottoms the price level of fee market, but costs you fee opportunity.
19:19 < sipa> i disagree with the idea that miners should have any influence at all on maximum throughput
19:19 < sipa> they are exactly the ones that benefit from it
19:19 < katu> indeed
19:20 < katu> if they form cartel, they can extort fees
19:20 < sipa> the limits should be set by what the technology can deal with, and nothing else
19:20 < katu> but then again, if they form cartel, dont we have bigger problems at hand?
19:20 < sipa> larger blocks give extra opportunity for larger cartels
19:21 < sipa> so they not only provide a means for higher income at the cost of every othet validation node, they also give an extra incentive to cartelize, as larger blocks can be used to compete smaller players out of the market
19:21 < katu> sipa: i agree with current pool situation, dynamically adjusted fees and market is just not feasible
19:21 < katu> but there will be increasing pressure for this as mining reward drops
19:22 < sipa> maybe, the dynamics of that aren't entirely clear to me
19:23 < sipa> but to me, capacity limits are there as means for fully validating nodes (seen as the ones who decide the consensus rules) to limit the advantage larger miners can have over smaller ones, as it is in their best interest to not incentivize centralization of mining
19:24 < sipa> (that's not the only reason of course, another is to prevent resource requirememts to grow beyond what these full nodes themselves can deal with)
19:30 < katu> nod. though jute/braid style proposals this seems to be alleviated a bit (the david vs golliath problem, but not necessarily the race to the bottom and everyone taking bigger bite than they can swallow in market race)
19:31 < katu> though *in
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19:48 < kanzure> "denial-of-service is prevented by per byte fees" well if you mean as a replacement for block size, i think that would mean a moving transaction fee floor minimum enforced by consensus rules?
19:48 < kanzure> no, nevermind. i haven't factored in anything from the dynamic validation cost target work.
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23:48 < Taek> drat
23:49 < Taek> I realized that my algorithm for getting a total ordering on a graph doesn't yield the required safety properties
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23:49 < Taek> :< disappointing
23:59 < Taek> Bitcoin provides a safety property such that for any block with N confirmations, that block cannot be invalidated without the introduction of at least N additional blocks
--- Log closed Sun Sep 18 00:00:00 2016