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08:29 < kanzure> "Simulation-based evaluation of coin selection strategies" http://murch.one/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/CoinSelection.pdf
08:29 < murch> kanzure: Yes? :)
08:29 < sipa> murch: kanzure is just quoting a link :)
08:29 < kanzure> don't mind me.
08:30 < murch> Oh, you also use this channel for archival of research?
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08:30 < sipa> and spreading of knowledge
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08:47 < waxwing> that's pretty interesting, thanks kanzure murch
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10:17 < xinxi> instagibbs: here we are.
10:17 < bsm117532> I'm confused by your question...why use a quantum-resistant key exchange algorithm to exchange keys for an algorithm that is itself not quantum resistant (e.g. relies on security of ECDLP)?
10:17 < instagibbs> xinxi: CT is also broken under quantum attack
10:17 < instagibbs> so, it's not really an added plus, even if we ignore "it's not in libsecp" :P
10:18 < xinxi> Is it? commitment = xG + aH is not broken though.
10:18 < sipa> xinxi: privacy-wise, no
10:18 < sipa> but security wise it certainly is
10:19 < xinxi> If the privacy is kept, isn't it enough?
10:19 < bsm117532> it relies on the elliptic curve discrete logarithm being hard though.
10:19 < sipa> no, you can arbitrarily print money
10:20 < sipa> for a given commitment C you can't find the original amount and blinding factor
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10:20 < sipa> but you easily find another amount and blinding favtor with the same commitment
10:20 < instagibbs> information theoretically private, but not secure in the inflation sense
10:20 < instagibbs> right?
10:20 < xinxi> Got it.
10:21 < sipa> yup CT is information theoretically private, but only computationally secure
10:21 < xinxi> Why not use a quantum resistant homomorphic method?
10:21 < sipa> CT is already painfully large as it is.
10:22 < sipa> quantum reistant methods usually have huge keys and signatures
10:22 < xinxi> OK. Did you check CCT?
10:23 < xinxi> That's much smaller than CT.
10:25 < bsm117532> I had to look that up.  You mean this? http://voxelsoft.com/dev/cct.html
10:25 < xinxi> Yes
10:28 < instagibbs> "Unfortunately, Andrew Poelstra was able to break the cryptosystem for this scheme's range-proofs." from Feb 2nd this year
10:28 < instagibbs> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085436.100
10:30 < xinxi> Aha, missed that.
10:31 < xinxi> What're the ECDH public/private key sizes now used by Elements?
10:34 < sipa> secp256k1 all the way
10:36 < xinxi> Thanks. That's indeed much smaller than post-quantum algorithms' keys.
10:36 < sipa> CT range proofs are already 2.5 kB
10:37 < sipa> we have an optimization to reduce it to around 1.8
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10:41 < xinxi> Yeah, that's pretty big. Research on the range proof is quite active though. Efficient Protocols for Set Membership and Range Proofs got 152 citations.
10:42 < xinxi> There is still no break through?
10:42 < waxwing> sipa: has anyone given much thought to smaller ranges? 32 bit amount range is quite huge. (if i remembered that right)
10:44 < sipa> waxwing: well, logarithmic gain :)
10:44 < sipa> one problem is that there is a propagation of informationn
10:45 < waxwing> yes, well. point(s) taken.
10:45 < sipa> if all inputs that indirectly consistitute an output ever used a small range, you know a lot
10:49 < waxwing> i think the log scaling is the important point there, the other point is valid but you can argue both sides of it (some privacy is better than none).
10:52 < bsm117532> .title https://www.iacr.org/archive/asiacrypt2008/53500238/53500238.pdf
10:52 < yoleaux> bsm117532: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
10:52 < bsm117532> Efficient Protocols for Set Membership and Range Proofs
10:54 < bsm117532> uses Boneh's signatures...
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10:58 < sipa> bsm117532: afaik, those are not more compact than CT
11:01 < sipa> the range proof used in CT would be around 15000 bits for that range they demonstrate
11:06 < bsm117532> for reference: \https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt
11:07 < bsm117532> I see, you're already using the Borromean ring signatures...
11:07 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085273.0
11:09 < sipa> bsm117532: yes, borromean ring signature were invented for CT
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12:32 < nsh> ( http://phys.org/news/2016-09-non-probabilistic-quantum-theory-unpredictable-results.html )
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17:42 < CodeShark> nsh: interpretation of quantum theory is a fun mental game - but in the end it always feels like we just sweep difficulties under a different rug :)
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18:29 < xinxi> sipa_: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.441.1089&rep=rep1&type=pdf
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18:30 < xinxi> there is a constant range proof.
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18:31 < xinxi> It's always 18 group elements.
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18:36 < andytoshi> xinxi: that's broken, whoever runs `gencrs` can forge proofs
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18:48 < xinxi> andytoshi: how difficult is that?
18:50 < andytoshi> xinxi: it's exactly as difficult as generating an honest proof, it looks like
18:50 < andytoshi> but this is a -really- wordy construction, it might be easier or harder
18:51 < andytoshi> xinxi: this is "proven secure in the CRS model" .. the CRS model is a security model in which certain undetectable forgeries just don't count, for the purpose of the paper
18:51 < andytoshi> academics like this model because it's much easier to prove things in
18:51 < andytoshi> but declaring that some forgeries don't count, doesn't change the fact that the scheme is broken
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19:00 < xinxi> andytoshi: what's the security model used by current CT?
19:00 < xinxi> standard model?
19:00 < andytoshi> xinxi: random oracle model
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19:02 < andytoshi> "standard model" means no oracles (in particular, hash functions can't be treated as producing random values)
19:03 < andytoshi> sometimes you hear the "CRS model", which is some other model plus a backdoor algorithm and a security definition that excludes use of the backdoor ... many authors call this the "standard model" because technically a back door is not an oracle, and i guess they think it gives them some legitimacy to say "standard model"
19:04 < xinxi> Random oracle model assumes true randomness. Isn't it broken either?
19:05 < andytoshi> no, empiracally it appears that you can slot in "hash the current state of the system with SHA2 or something" in place of true randomness, and the security still holds
19:05 < xinxi> Yeah, but that's not true randomness.
19:06 < andytoshi> in particular, if something was broken by this replacement, it'd somehow be exploiting the fact that a hash function is not really random ... but the structure that hash functions have is really different from the structure that the other parts of the algorithms have
19:06 < andytoshi> and it appears that they don't ever interact (except in very contrived constructions designed to break in this way)
19:06 < xinxi> Yeah, it's pretty good randomness and difficult to break.
19:06 < andytoshi> well, we've had some 20+ years of random oracle schemes and no used system has ever been broken because of it
19:07 < xinxi> I am wondering is CRS similar to that? Is there any CRS based algorithms broken because of the assumption of the security model?
19:07 < andytoshi> i mean, this is a bit of a dodgy thing to say. certainly hash functions are broken and then the schemes that use them are broken because of this
19:08 < andytoshi> xinxi: yes, when you replace a common reference string with something that's physically instantiated, then anyone in possession of its source can break the system, usually
19:08 < andytoshi> so most CRS schemes are literally broken by definition when they are instantiated
19:08 < andytoshi> every time
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19:16 < xinxi> andytoshi: Can we change the method by using ECDH to exchange the common string?
19:17 < xinxi> I feel the setting of the problem in the paper is a bit different from CT, where we can get a public key of the receiver.
19:18 < andytoshi> xinxi: the "receiver" of the proof is every person using the system now and in the future
19:18 < andytoshi> the recipient of the transaction is nobody special, security wise
19:18 < andytoshi> but you touch on a good point -- often the CRS assumption is actually OK, when there is one person verifying (and not proving), and then they can generate the CRS
19:19 < andytoshi> this is how greg maxwell's "zero-knowledge contingent payment" scheme works, offchain people exchange solution to some puzzle (and prove that the solution exists using some CRS-based proof scheme)
19:22 < andytoshi> but unfortunately for a blockchain this is not the case, the verifier set is open-ended
19:24 < rgrant> is there a way for one of n multisig participants to update their address?
19:25 < rgrant> (using MAST, advanced key techniques, or an OP that people have already proposed)
19:26 < xinxi> andytoshi: OK. I know what you mean.
19:27 < andytoshi> rgrant: an address doesn't hit any blockchain structures until after somebody has sent money to it .. and at that point i think all the keys need to be committed to for the system to have sane semantics
19:27 < andytoshi> so the answer is no, and no amount of crypto can get around it
19:28 < andytoshi> (before anything hits the blockchain, they can just replace their address on whatever medium is being used to send it to would-be spenders, ofc)
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19:35 < rgrant> if we know we want another address beforehand, we can put a branch into a MAST tx with the address (and even keep some secret piece of that branch in the meantime, to not grant the address any control now).  it would be nice to take this a step further.
19:36 < rgrant> the business case is key rotation or selling one's participation in a long-running multisig
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19:48 < rgrant> it also seems that building the multisig out of MAST branch concatenation (using an opcode that reaches elsewhere in the MAST), rather than by concatenating at MAST-creation time, could allow one to specify a brnch with only one signature required, that then copies/recomputes the other subbranches, without knowing the other signatures.
19:48 < rgrant> this last part is a hunch.
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19:56 < rgrant> ahh, but either the TXOUT moves with one signature, or it requires the multisig.  i think i see the problem.
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20:09 < rgrant> so this is a little clunky, but the solution might be an opcode that specifies which nodes of a MAST may be replaced when a certain key signs, and sends funds to a new UTXO with the recomputed MAST.  other keys used in the multisig would want to carefully review this replaceable-branch list, whereer the opcode occurs.
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20:51 < sipa_> andytoshi: "empirically it appears"... just empirically? isn't that the basis for fiat-shamir?
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