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01:01 < yoga14> Trying to understand this comment by Vitalik: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/54a0mu/quick_update_from_the_ground_re_transaction_spam/d80qun6 Ethereum is suffering from an attack making validation of blocks 20-60 seconds long. Doesn´t the short block interval of 12 seconds makes the attack worse?
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01:17 < yoga14> (in the context of a miner creating slow blocks to maximize its advantage)
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08:33 < andytoshi> amiller_: if you're bored for 15 minutes can you take a look at section 2.2 (in particular 2.2.2) of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/mw-INCOMPLETE-DRAFT-25nov2016.pdf and tell me if it's totally off-base?
08:33 < andytoshi> Taek42: you may also be interested in this
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08:36 < kanzure> s/nov/sept
08:37 < andytoshi> oh, lol, oops .. and the date on the paper itself is august
08:38 < andytoshi> that's ok, anything i can do to discourage people taking the paper too seriously at this point is fine
08:38 < kanzure> *shrug* it's right within a certain inaccuracy
08:38 < andytoshi> :)
08:40 < kanzure> does "probability of successfully rewriting the chain regardless of the length of the chain" mean "probability of successfully rewriting the [compact] chain regardless of the length of the chain" ?
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08:41 < kanzure> oh i guess the difference isn't so important here
08:41 < andytoshi> kanzure: oh, yeah, the first chain is "compact", the second is "full" .. though it doesn't really matter in this sentence
08:41 < andytoshi> yeah, the bolded text is "eh, we basically can't bound these probabilities away from 0 or 1"
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09:35 < waxwing> andytoshi: what is "x" in definition 5? the message?
09:38 < waxwing> oh i see, seems to be "h" as per previous. but what is e() used in the verif. check?
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09:55 < proslogion> i should maybe write some code to autofill a crypto paper with all the boilerplate jargons
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10:05 < bsm117532> andytoshi: How do these "skip blocks" commit to all the transactions?  Are they merge-mined with standard blocks?
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10:30 < andytoshi> bsm117532: there is only one kind of block
10:31 < andytoshi> the proof of theorem 7 will explain the commitment structure
10:31 < bsm117532> So you combine a set of previous blocks based on the smallness of the produced hash?
10:32 < andytoshi> i can't parse that
10:33 < bsm117532> If I produce a PoW hash that is accidentally much smaller than the target, I can use it to produce a block that combines some others?
10:33 < andytoshi> you can't ever "combine" blocks
10:33 < andytoshi> given a blockchain (with a commitment structure i haven't yet described) there is a sub-blockchain that can be independently verified
10:33 < proslogion> andytoshi: is the 'p' in (p,h) the nonce, or something else?
10:34 < andytoshi> proslogion: no.
10:34 < bsm117532> This blockchain is a set of log(N) blocks though.  Do I have that right?
10:35 < proslogion> okay, so p is the linear combination of p_i then
10:36 < andytoshi> proslogion: i think p is the signature there
10:36 < proslogion> thanks
10:36 < andytoshi> `p` is a holdover from an earier revision when i was working with proofs instead of signatures
10:36 < andytoshi> bsm117532: yes, expected set size is log(N) for a random blockchain of N blocks
10:37 < waxwing> further to my previous Q, i can't make sense of the notation in defn 5; in particular the verify step. "computes P as the sum of all elements of p", is p actually the sig then, and P the sum of those sig elements? and as before, what is e()?
10:37 < proslogion> is e() some bilinear group opeartion...
10:38 < andytoshi> waxwing: do you mean the poelstra/kulkarni sig -after- definition 5?
10:38 < waxwing> yes, you're right, not the same thing. yes i meant that.
10:38 < andytoshi> waxwing: p in Verify is the s from Sign, x is the same in both
10:38 < andytoshi> e is the pairing
10:39 < waxwing> yes, thanks andytoshi proslogion, got it now.
10:39 < andytoshi> i need to go over all of this stuff again and unify notation and also change it all to use assymetric pairings
10:41 < proslogion> so CDH in the calligraphic G is not our run of the mill CDH IIRC
10:42 < andytoshi> proslogion: right, it's actually SXDH or something, i need to fix that too
10:42 < proslogion> thanks
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12:50 < tromp_> use Equihash PoW at your own peril: https://forum.z.cash/t/breaking-equihash-in-solutions-per-gb-second/1995/2
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13:05 < katu> tromp_: i followed your btalk drama :)
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13:06 < katu> the gauntlet is still thrown, ram hard complex algorithmic problems is a beaten, unreliable horse, lets just move on.
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15:06 < bsm117532> andytoshi: This log(N) blockchain idea is a completely separate idea from Mimblewimble, no?  Is there anything that inextricably links the two?
15:08 < andytoshi> bsm117532: the sinking signatures interact very well with the log(N) blockchain idea
15:09 < andytoshi> you can't do full validation of a compact chain any other way i've heard of (for any notion of "full validation")
15:09 < andytoshi> but sure, this is basically the compact SPV scheme that appeared in appendix A of the sidechains whitepaper 2 years ago (and i think was floating around before)
15:10 < bsm117532> I mean, one could build a log-tower of Bitcoin blocks in the same way, without signature aggregation.
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15:11 < andytoshi> ..sure, but it would be missing piles of transaction data and would not really be useful to a verifier..
15:11 < andytoshi> in bitcoin you need every transaction to validate the chain
15:14 < bsm117532> Yes, it would just be a different accounting mechanism for the transactions.  It wouldn't have the property that you could discard old transactions, as you can if you can also aggregate signatures.
15:14 < andytoshi> well if you can't discard transactions you can't discard blockheaders either, since those tie the transactions to the chain
15:15 < bsm117532> You'd need some form of merge-mining, such that you're simultaneously merge mining for each of the log(N) target difficulties.
15:17 < andytoshi> well fortunately every one of those requires you search exactly the same space of hashes in exactly the same way..
15:17 < bsm117532> It would look like log(N) parallel blockchains.  If you found a PoW target T, you could aggregate every level having a larger target.
15:18 < andytoshi> like you are mining blocks that have the transactions of many previous blocks in them?
15:18 < bsm117532> Yes.
15:18 < andytoshi> sure, you can do that, and you'll save 80 bytes per meg
15:19 < bsm117532> You have a blockchain at T, another at T/2 another at T/4.  When you find a PoW that satisfies T/4 you're allowed to aggregate previous blocks at T and T/2.  (for instance)
15:20 < andytoshi> this is a really trivial form of aggregation though, you're just concatenating blocks and dropping headers, and the merkle proofs are the same order of size as the headers
15:20 < bsm117532> Sure.  It's only interesting because of the ability to present log(N) block headers to light clients.  Signature aggregation obviously makes it much more power.  But am I describing your idea essentially?
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15:21 < andytoshi> i think so
15:21 < bsm117532> Ok, thanks
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15:24 < andytoshi> but there's a weird consensus issue here where the "parallel" blocks might not have matching contents, i'd have to think that through, you don't want a situation where transactions are never safe
15:25 < andytoshi> when your transactions are reduced to aggregable signatures you can have the block commitments be in a merkle sum tree structure
15:26 < andytoshi> and mimblewimble naturally makes it impossible to remove transactions without screwing up this sum
15:40 < andytoshi> oh, that's not true, you can remove complete transactions whose outputs have not been spent (if you know the transaction)
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17:18 < NewLiberty> @yoga14 that attack vector is why BTC does not have larger block sizes yet.
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17:54 < bsm117532> andytoshi: Yes I've been thinking a lot about combining Mimble wimble and a DAG/braid structure.  But the way I've been thinking about it, one needs to do conflict resolution (double-spend) at the individual transaction level.  Once you aggregate, a single double-spend can "poison" a larger set of transactions with which it gets aggregated.
18:07 < bsm117532> This seems to be an insurmountable obstacle...I don't see any way to untangle a double spend without destroying the privacy-preserving features of aggregation.
18:09 < amiller_> andytoshi, this looks cool
18:09 < amiller_> andytoshi, it's really useful you wrote out all the cryptography this way
18:09 < amiller_> i'm confused why there is no high level explanation of the goal
18:09 < amiller_> i think the goals for this are a combination of scalability and privacy
18:10 < amiller_> i think the privacy only kicks in when miners "forget" information that they all had to have and validate
18:10 < amiller_> i can see how that is useful for privacy, but that's the key intuition for how privacy is achieved, the crypto protocol on its own doesn't make it private
18:10 < andytoshi> sorry amiller_, because the high level stuff was stuff i knew would work .. so i naturally wrote out the hard stuff to avoid wasting time :)
18:11 < amiller_> for scalability i don't understand the interaction between this compact chain and the orgiinal chain
18:11 < andytoshi> you are correct about miners needing to "forget", i think at this point getting any privacy out of the aggregation is sorta open
18:11 < amiller_> how is the compact chain different than just a node that only keeps the UTXO state and the most recent thousand blocks or whatever to handle short forks?
18:12 < andytoshi> amiller_: the difference is that all transactions are still attached to a chain that has expected work-to-rewrite that's the same as the original chain
18:13 < andytoshi> you can imagine a bitcoin node just snapshotting the state at blockheight-1000 and giving this to a user, this is obviously bad .. then you can imagine if blocks committed to utxoset, then this isn't nearly as bad (someone would have to rewrite the 1000 blocks to lie)
18:13 < andytoshi> but even in that scenario, rewriting the -whole chain- for 1000 blocks work will get increasingly enticing
18:14 < andytoshi> in this scheme, would-be forgers expect to do as much work as rewriting the chain (though they might get lucky with nontrivial probability), which keeps the incentives aligned
18:14 < andytoshi> amiller_: gimme 2 minutes, i'll refresh the doc, i've written a bit of high-level stuff
18:14 < amiller_> ok
18:14 < amiller_> cool
18:15 < andytoshi> kk same URL should have a new section 2.1 with some high-level stuff
18:15 < andytoshi> (and some of the crypto is updated to use assymetric pairings and co-CDH, but this is less interesting and still not done)
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18:31 < amiller_> ls
18:31 < amiller_> sorry
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18:35 < andytoshi> in the morning i will add a section 2.2 which outlines the desired scalability and talks about 'hooks' for privacy (this could be so private if only we could somehow avoid publishing X data at any point, etc) since i don't have good specific ideas for privacy beyond CT
18:36 < amiller_> ok this is sorta cool
18:36 < amiller_> i think what you are saying is that there is a sort of layered trust model,
18:36 < andytoshi> a MVP scheme greg suggested was to have miners advertise tor hidden services and you send txes to them and they aggregate, then in theory each block's real contents are only known to single miners, and if they don't collude you get good hiding
18:36 < amiller_> where there is an attack that could cause double spends but couldn't cause "inflation"
18:37 < amiller_> if there are no 51% attackers or ridiculous network partitions ever, then these basically coincide in the other attacks they prevent
18:38 < andytoshi> i think that's roughly it .. i'm not sure what you mean by "an attack that could cause double spends" beyond a 51% attack
18:38 < amiller_> but if there is a temporary 51% attacker that causes some long fork, they would be able to print infinite money that SPV clients would accept
18:38 < amiller_> even if with UTXO commitments
18:38 < andytoshi> well they'd be able to print as much money as exists for a chain of that length..
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18:38 < amiller_> however with mimble-wimble, they wouldn't be able to produce that infinite money
18:38 < andytoshi> they can't print infinite money under any circumstances
18:38 < andytoshi> right
18:38 < amiller_> you can print infinite money if you are attacking a SPV merchant
18:38 < amiller_> and have 51%
18:39 < andytoshi> here you can give a SPV merchant a single pairing to verify to ensure no inflation
18:40 < andytoshi> oh, such a merchant would still need to verify the whole utxoset to do what i'm thinking
18:41 < andytoshi> but one thing this sinking signature scheme gets you is that _every transaction ever_ signs the blockheight 0, and you can aggregate all those signatures into one, and this single signature proves that every transaction was noninflationary
18:41 < andytoshi> this is an extreme use of the sinking signature construction
18:42 < andytoshi> so you expect total_coins*H + all_transactions'_excess = sum_of_utxos ... you want to ensure that the excess is some multiple of G (no coins hidden in there) .. you can be assured of this by the aggregated signature
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18:46 < andytoshi> (this extreme SPV is a bit silly in mimblewimble tho, if you do the compact-SPV you get this expected-value stuff and "no transactions can be replaced without rewriting their block" and it takes like a meg of data and 20 core-seconds to verify all the pairings, by my estimate)
18:47 < andytoshi> err, not compact-SPV, compact chain
18:47 < andytoshi> what i'm calling "full mimblewimble security"
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 26 00:00:04 2016