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06:36 < kanzure> amiller_: miners don't need to forget the information; in most cases, if you have p2p-network-level transaction aggregation, the miners will not have the data in the first place. (i guess you mean "miners might record their mempools" and in that case, what you really need is to have someone include your transaction in an aggregation without sending it to the flood network, right?)
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06:41 < andytoshi> kanzure: if you do that naively you run into lots of DoS attacks .. e.g. i can create a series of conflicting transactions, and every tx that flows by me i aggregate another conflict onto
06:41 < andytoshi> the result is that i've basically killed most of the transactions on the network since they can't be combined into a single block
06:42 < andytoshi> i'm not sure how to deal with this except by something gross like requiring transactions be signed by their outputs (as an IsStandard rule, not a consensus one), so on the p2p layer you can't noninteractively combine
06:42 < andytoshi> or having users directly communicate unmerged transactions to miners, which then requires miners to forget
06:43 < andytoshi> or having specific nodes (like in dash(?)) that are responsible for merging, but then you've got the usual SPOF-or-sybil problem
06:44 < andytoshi> what i'd really like is some algebraic way to combine transactions that overlap, but this is hard (maybe there's some reason it's impossible)
06:44 < bsm117532> You need some kind of zero-knowledge mechanism to resolve double-spends, or you'll destroy all the advantage of aggregation.
06:45 < andytoshi> what?
06:45 < bsm117532> I have no idea how to do this.
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07:17 < bsm117532> I see two ways out of this: (1) have miners hold on to individual (non-aggregated) transactions so that in the event of a double-spend, they can create a new aggregation that resolves the double spend.
07:17 < bsm117532> (2) Use a signature aggregation technique that is not one-way: so that a double-spend signature could be "subtracted out".
07:18 < bsm117532> Either case opens up a new form of attack: de-anonymizing other transactions by issuing a stream of low-value double-spends.
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10:07 < petertodd> new blog post on OpenTimestamps's git integration: https://petertodd.org/2016/opentimestamps-git-integration
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10:10 < bsm117532> +1 petertodd.  Keys should never have "expiration" dates.  They should have revocation dates, and a date-range of validity instead.
10:10 < petertodd> "expiration" dates might be the most misleading terminology in all of PGP...
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10:24 < bsm117532> It's not just PGP though, it's all common usage of PKI (certificates, etc).  They all want an expiration date.  We're supposed to guess when the key will be compromised.
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11:16 < qwebirc791706> Hi all
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11:19 < johnhardy> I've created Buzz, a turing complete concept for scaling Bitcoin to infinitely. Please have a read of my idea and let me know what you think: https://seebitcoin.com/2016/09/introducing-buzz-a-turing-complete-concept-for-scaling-bitcoin-to-infinity-and-beyond/
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12:05 < maaku> bsm117532: it's perfectly reasonable to plan key rotations in advance...
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12:06 < bsm117532> Why do you want to rotate keys in the first place?  Only because you don't know when they get compromised.  There are better ways to deal with that.
12:08 < maaku> there are many organizational and situational reasons for key rotation, on or off schedule
12:09 < bsm117532> What's a reason for an "on-schedule" key rotation?  (absent another event, like server replacement)
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15:54 < amiller> andytoshi, your site looks down :(
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16:58 < kanzure> amiller: the previous version was http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/mimblewimble-andytoshi-INCOMPLETE-DRAFT-2016-09-25.pdf
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17:28 < uiuc-slack> <amiller> thanks
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22:58 < andytoshi> amiller: you are correct, dealing with canadian ISP bullshit .. i've made a fair bit of progress on the paper today, will update tomorrow when my server is accessible again
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