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06:19 < waxwing> e0: the puzzle-solver redeem transactions broadcast by the tumbler would have 15 preimages each of size 16 bytes (lamba_1=128), is that right?
06:19 < waxwing> i'm trying to find it on the blockchain but can't get the numbers right, e.g. i think this is one: https://blockchain.info/tx/5d6370925491430a5872315fa8ceb2051c7dfd684458efc17bab7866cde576fc
06:20 < waxwing> i seem to be wrong one way or another :)
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07:43 < nicolagreco> Question about multisig and malleability: If I send a transaction to an address of (myKey, h(some data)) - with the aim to store extra data on the chain, can someone intercept this request, change it to (myKey, h(fakedata)) ?
07:44 < Taek> nicolagreco: not if your signature covers the data.
07:45 < Taek> transaction malleability primarily refers to the fact that given some data and a valid signature, you can create an alternate valid signature on the same data. This changes the transaction id, which causese problems for anyone who uses transaction ids
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08:06 < andytoshi> nicolagreco: it would be better to send the data to myKey + h(some data, myPublicKey) since this will take no extra blockchain space, will work with standard transactions, and has better privacy properties
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08:32 < Taek> katu, andytoshi: finally got a jute draft that I'm happy with.
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08:33 < Taek> gist.github.com/Taek42/3e4f029261b5719e4587fe4972fb904a
08:34 < Taek> The most interesting part is 'The Jute Ordering Algorithm', most of the stuff after that I just kinda puked out
08:37 < Taek> I think the most useful advancement was deciding to confirm DAG edges instead of DAG nodes.
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11:05 < andytoshi> Taek: nit: under 'High Variance Mining Rewards', the number of blocks found is poisson
11:05 < andytoshi> (the time to find blocks is exponential)
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11:19 < andytoshi> Taek: i'm a bit confused about this algorithm for voting .. i set `parent` to the genesis block then look at the votes on all edges from parent to its children
11:19 < andytoshi> so an edge from A to B means B commits to A
11:20 < andytoshi> now, it seems like to get these vote counts i need to recurse? the algorithm as written seems to suggest that i know them already
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11:33 < andytoshi> ok, i think i understand the merge algo actually, well enough at least that i can make my own examples..
11:33 < andytoshi> will votes eventually be weighted by difficulty?
11:35 < andytoshi> i'm a little nervous about this "don't allow merges after enough work", this has the feel to me like "don't allow reorgs after too long" which leads to permanent forks. but it's different, of course, because merges are committed to by tips, so if somebody tried to do this there wouldn't be any partition who thought it was legitimate..
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11:43 < waxwing> e0: or anyone else that knows about tumblebit, i'm having trouble understanding step 2 of the puzzle promise protocol on pg13; the real transactions seem to have a random (rho_i) appended before hashing, but this doesn't seem to make sense (no point signing a real tx with a random pad). when i look at the poc code, it seems like there is no such pad (and randomness is achieved through the receiving address being random, which i think makes sense
11:43 < waxwing> ).
11:44 < andytoshi> i think in the paper it is not assumed that transactions have secret random data in them
11:46 < waxwing> andytoshi: yes, i agree, just step 2 in that protocol (and the footnote to the table/figure) it talks specifically about appending random padding to CashoutTFormat
11:47 < waxwing> whole thing makes sense to me apart from that bit.
11:50 < andytoshi> waxwing: if the tx does not contain secret data not known to the tumbler, then the tumbler could in principle distinguish the real commitments from the fake ones
11:50 < andytoshi> that was my understanding when i read the paper
11:50 < andytoshi> what's in the code sounds like an optimization based on the fact that the transaction output is already a random pad
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11:51 < waxwing> andytoshi: ok that makes sense to me, except it isn't optional, you couldn't random-pad the real one(s) because then T would be ecdsa signing something useless. or did i miss something.
11:52 < andytoshi> waxwing: the ECDSA signature is totally separate from the blind signature that the tumbler gives
11:52 < andytoshi> at the point when the tumbler makes an ECDSA signature, it has the real tx
11:52 < nicolagreco> andytoshi: would that not pollute utxo ? when you use +, you mean concatenation or addition?
11:52 < andytoshi> nicolagreco: i mean addition
11:53 < andytoshi> nicolagreco: i should have added *G to the thing i added, i was being ambiguous because i wasn't sure if myKey was public or private
11:53 < waxwing> andytoshi: i'm talking about step 5 in the puzzle promise. there it ecdsa signs the hash of all the reals and all the fakes.
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11:55 < waxwing> the fakes have random pads, and according to step 2 (although the term. isn't that clear), it seems to be saying the reals also have random rho_i. (it signs the "beta_i" values which are the ht_i and ft_i)
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12:01 < bsm117532> Taek: Are these "votes" equivalent to evaluating the highest work?
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12:22 < andytoshi> waxwing: yeah, you're right
12:22 < andytoshi> but note that every real challenge needs to have different randomness in it
12:23 < andytoshi> so i think the paper is just weirdly written, it should say something like "T_cash^i = CashOutFormat(p_i)" and explain that CashOutFormat() takes randomness and produces the signaturehash of a transaction outputting to some address owned by B
12:23 < andytoshi> cuz even "the unsigned portion of a transaction" is not right, it has to be the signature hash
12:32 < andytoshi> (i seem to remember getting stuck on this point too, though i don't remembre how i resolved it)
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12:41 < Taek> andytoshi: all votes are weighted by difficulty, yeah. Not allowing merges after enough work is actually poorly defined, I think you'd want to outright use the same 'max gap' rule from before. But this time the threshold is set very high
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12:43 < Taek> I think you could set it at something more like 24 hours, but already '2000' means that in the past 3 hours, more than 2000 blocks have ignored you
12:44 < andytoshi> sure
12:44 < Taek> And those 2000 blocks all have enough work to be ordered under you.
12:44 < andytoshi> well if the goal is to avoid orphan risk from slow propagation, this is fine
12:45 < Taek> the only reason I have it is because you can't have blocks building off of the genesis block 5 years later
12:45 < Taek> the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and preferably inside of the most recent difficulty adjustment
12:45 < andytoshi> yeah, absolutely
12:45 < andytoshi> i had a similar problem with MW, i just had to eat it (since near the tip i'm using satoshi consensus, this is not so bad)
12:48 < Taek> bsm117532: the 'votes' help you figure out which cohort to add to the dag next, but the highest work is measured by counting the total number of decendents of the tip block
12:49 < Taek> So I would say that they are different, though 'votes' are sort of like confirmations. They are weaker though because you don't end up confirming every route in the DAG, only a single route
12:50 < Taek> After the network has converged, every single block will vote for the same route past wherever the convergence point was, so in the long term it does end up being as strong as Bitcoin confirmations
12:50 < Taek> it's just that the security is delayed until the convergence starts
12:55 < bsm117532> Let's say some miner keeps mining blocks with their only parent as the genesis block.  Will they get merged?
12:56 < Taek> only if their gap height never exceeds 2000, which means some block from the main chain would have to be merging them in. So, no they won't get merged
12:56 < bsm117532> Ok so you're putting in an arbitrary cutoff that disallows forks longer than a certain length?
12:57 < Taek> Essentially, yes. Though it's a very large cutoff, b/c you don't want any reasonable situation where an attacker could get that many blocks in a row and start orphaning honest blocks
12:58 < bsm117532> I had kind of decided to allow merging of all such blocks.  But it turns everything into one giant cohort.  That's not in itself a problem but complicates making references to chain state.
12:58 < Taek> 2000 blocks (at a 5 second block time) is a huge threshold to hit if you have minority hashrate
12:58 < bsm117532> I'm more concerned about healing network forks, and I don't want to have to guess how long it will take to restore connectivity...
12:59 < Taek> like a partition?
12:59 < bsm117532> yes
12:59 < Taek> if there's a partition that lasts multiple hours, one side is going to win and cause a bunch of orphans on the other side. To me that seems like a pretty reasonable failure mode though.
13:00 < bsm117532> I'd allow the merge, but double-spends would be decided in favor of the majority hashpower fork of course.  This is more along the lines of the "inclusive" blockchains -- keep all blocks regardless of content.
13:02 < Taek> you run into a problem where someone can continually mine a torrent of blocks by using a parent from a time where the difficulty is 1% the current difficulty. Then you run into network throughput problems
13:02 < bsm117532> That would be a dumb difficulty targeting algorithm...
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13:04 < Taek> ?
13:04 < Taek> it's how Bitcoin currently works
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13:06 < bsm117532> I'd also say Bitcoin's retargeting is "dumb" ;-)
13:06 < bsm117532> As many altcoins discovered...
13:06 < Taek> The difficulty is going to be approximately tracking the product of a coin's growth and moore's law
13:07 < bsm117532> Taek: did you describe a difficulty targeting algorithm in your doc?
13:07 < Taek> regardless of how you are doing difficulty adjustment, if you mine on a block from some weeks ago, it's likely going to have an appreciably lower difficulty.
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13:08 < Taek> I just kind of handwaved over that part. Naively you could just set the retarget to every 2 weeks, (every 241,920 blocks) and then just keep the same algo as Bitcoin
13:09 < Taek> I came up with a new difficulty adjustment algorithm that lets you update ~every block without introducing the tailspins that usually occur
13:09 < Taek> but ultimately I don't think it's necessary and want to keep things simple
13:09 < bsm117532> I've been working on a window-based retargeting.  The retarget, like blocks are a synchronous event and the system can't tolerate two at once.  So it makes sense to take into account the fundamental asynchronicity of the network -- which means that at any given time there's a range of difficulty targets that could be acceptible.
13:10 < Taek> If I was to make another coin, I'd use a difficulty adjustment algorithm that updated as frequently as possible. Just need to mix in some extra-algebra to prevent volatility
13:11 < bsm117532> Yeah my retargeting is continuous.  So the acceptable window moves with time and is updated with each block.
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13:28 < waxwing> andytoshi: agreed, yeah, sorry for sidetracking you :) probably it was just unclear-ness in the way it's written.
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23:46 < skang404>  Hey I have ques regarding segwit.. Aren't BLS signatures like ring
23:46 < skang404>            signatures and Can BLS scheme/balloon be applied to CT?
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 01 00:00:09 2016