--- Log opened Sat Oct 01 00:00:09 2016 00:06 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:4dd5:b68c:c920:6f62] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:08 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:09 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@107-142-8-22.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:19 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: DigiByteDev] 00:23 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 00:25 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:36 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@104.156.228.114] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:50 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@mbp.dynamic.ucsd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@mbp.dynamic.ucsd.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:18 -!- cjcj [d4555899@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.85.88.153] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:20 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@41.141.100.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:23 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:23 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 01:23 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 01:25 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@mbp.dynamic.ucsd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:31 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@memeticproject.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:54 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: gabridome] 01:56 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:00 -!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:12 -!- jtimon [~quassel@150.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:15 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1019:4099:a8:294d:cbb3:7dee] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:29 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:32 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: DigiByteDev] 02:36 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: gabridome] 02:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 03:04 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:22 < Taek> I stated in my jute draft that SPV committment delays would need to be very high if the block time was much larger than 5 seconds. 03:23 < Taek> I realize now that there's a way to remove this limitation, and make it so that SPV commitment delays need only be as long as network convergence around a particular ordering 03:23 < Taek> which should be less than a few minutes 03:25 < Taek> That would make it reasonable to have a jute implementation with something like 30 second block times, where you get all the advantages of eliminating selfish mining without any of the txn-fee and convergence related problems that come with lower block times 03:28 -!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:31 -!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:39 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78-11-193-195.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:44 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@pool-71-176-227-116.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:51 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:10 -!- ThomasV 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ZZZzzz…] 08:34 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78-11-193-195.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:37 -!- Davasny_ [~quassel@195.150.236.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:39 < bsm1175321> Taek: How? I've been thinking of having SPV commitments refer to "lucky" blocks, regardless of DAG structure. Requiring a particular DAG structure prevents you from doing merging, were it to become necessary. And, you can't know whether merging will be necessary. 08:40 -!- droark [~droark@68.68.65.222] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:54 -!- droark [~droark@68.68.65.222] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 09:10 -!- Davasny_ [~quassel@195.150.236.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78-11-193-195.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:22 -!- musalbas [~musalbas@algebra.musalbas.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:52 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: 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#bitcoin-wizards 12:55 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:59 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:04 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- rogerwilco [~rogerwilc@195-230-58-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:14 -!- jtimon [~quassel@150.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:16 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@mbp.dynamic.ucsd.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: gabridome] 13:29 -!- skang404 [~user@27.6.192.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:45 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 < Taek> bsm1175321: All blocks have a particular ordering relative to when they were the most recent block. 13:51 < Taek> So they make the SPV commitment to that ordering 13:51 < Taek> You add code to the SPV clients so that the SPV clients realize when a block's ordering is no longer relevant 13:51 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:51 < Taek> you still ban any blocks that make a wrong commitment relative to their own height 13:52 < Taek> the SPV commitment still needs to be in the past, otherwise it's not useful as pretty much all blocks will have their commitment invalidated 13:53 < Taek> But, the reason that it needed to be far in the past was that a 45% hashrate attacker can occasionally (0.01% of the time or something) execute a reorg XXX blocks deep 13:53 < Taek> As long as that number is below like 5% of the time, it's okay if SPV clients occasionally see commitments that get reversed 13:53 < Taek> This is the same as a 1-2 block reorg in Bitcoin, it happens all the time 13:54 < Taek> but in the vast majority of blocks the SPV commitment holds, and once a commitment is sufficiently confirmed it's going to hold for good 13:54 < Taek> So we keep the same security model for SPV clients without putting miners at risk of having their blocks invalidated if an adversary manages to cause a deep (10-30 minutes of history) reorg 13:56 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:05 -!- aen9ah0S [~cfeaver@ip70-173-20-236.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06 -!- aen9ah0S [~cfeaver@ip70-173-20-236.lv.lv.cox.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 14:11 < bsm1175321> Taek: what is "height" here? 14:12 < Taek> oops 14:12 < Taek> "height" -> ancestry 14:12 < bsm1175321> So SPV clients could commit to a particular cohort, even though that cohort could be merged with another, and a later SPV client could commit to a structure that *contains* another SPV client's commitment? 14:13 < Taek> I don't think it's all that helpful to think in terms of cohorts for jute, because for lower block times there's no place where the width of the dag is only 1 14:13 < bsm1175321> The definition of the "thing" that these SPV clients commit to needs to be defined such that it cannot be reversed without 51% hashpower. 14:13 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:14 < bsm1175321> Accept the cohort. It is the total ordering. ;-) 14:14 < Taek> You can make any cohort arbitrarily big by adding more blocks which merge the granparent and the most recent child 14:15 < Taek> then someone only needs to merge you from the main chain 14:15 < bsm1175321> Taek: if you bring the block time so low that the "width" is too large, a total ordering becomes exponentially impossible to determine. 14:15 < Taek> not with the algorithm described in my jute gist 14:16 < bsm1175321> Taek: yes, so this requires a mechanism to define sub-cohorts. 14:16 * bsm1175321 goes back to read that... 14:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18 < Taek> The definition of the "thing" that these SPV clients commit to needs to be defined such that it cannot be reversed without 51% hashpower. 14:18 < Taek> I realized you can relax that a bit 14:18 < Taek> as long as it can't be reversed most of the time, you're safe 14:18 < Taek> well, it can't be reversed most of the time, and after some threshold of work is on top it's overwhelminingly difficult to reverse 14:19 < Taek> in Bitcoin, 'overwhelmingly difficult' is typically accepted as 6 confirmations, but most SPV clients are happy at 1 confirmation 14:19 < bsm1175321> This is a critically important point. I want to make sure we have a solid proof that a DAG construction leads to restoration of the 51% rule. 14:20 < Taek> so I would adopt the equivalent for jute - sometimes you end up being wrong about the commitment but it's a heavy minority of the time, and it's easy to figure out what the right thing is 14:20 < bsm1175321> This should be absolutely provable in a formal way. 14:21 < Taek> My post makes it pretty intuitive to understand that it's true for the 'edge voting' method of ordering dags 14:21 < bsm1175321> Do you have any code demonstrating it? 14:21 < Taek> just the 13 lines of conversational pseudocode 14:22 < Taek> Every block uses previous blocks to determine a total ordering, and then it votes for the edges in that total ordering. The ordering is decided by the edge votes of previous blocks 14:22 < bsm1175321> It should be pretty easy to add that to my python simulator, and simulate it to see if it ever reverses the order of blocks... 14:22 < Taek> There's this 'uncertainty' period where all the blocks are making commitments to different edges 14:22 < Taek> however once you've gone through enough network cycles, all of the honest hashrate is going to start confirming the same edge path for blocks far enough back in history 14:23 < Taek> The only way to alter history at that point is to somehow get another child of a parent that's got more edge votes 14:23 < Taek> but you're fighting all of the 'honest' hashrate which is continually adding votes to just that single edge 14:24 < Taek> and thus it becomes exponentially difficult to alter the history of that block as mining continues 14:25 < Taek> the squishy part of the algorithm comes from the fact that at some point the network needs to agree on which edge they are all confirming. I believe that it happens naturally, but I don't have a proof yet for it 14:25 < bsm1175321> Arguments are good, code is better. I'm looking over my code, trying to figure out how to make a simulation for your rules... 14:26 < Taek> also worth noting that the navie implementation has a runtime of O(DAG Size) to add a single block. It's pretty easy to optimize, but then you're going to end up with more confusing code 14:26 < kanzure> "CloudFlare posted a spec for Chaumian blinded tokens as an alternative to captchas for Tor users https://github.com/cloudflare/challenge-bypass-specification " via https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/782079772675497984 14:26 < bsm1175321> https://github.com/mcelrath/braidcoin/blob/master/braids.py#L271 14:26 < Taek> THANK GOD 14:26 < bsm1175321> Adding something to Braid.extend would do it 14:27 < kanzure> "documenting the Xilinx 7-series bit-stream format" https://twitter.com/oe1cxw/status/782257812114116608 14:27 < bsm1175321> What I'm interested in is seeing whether adding a bead/block, and re-doing your sorting ever results in a different total ordering. 14:27 < Taek> Captchas make me feel awful, basically makes Google the gatekeeper of the internet. 14:28 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:28 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29 < bsm1175321> Taek: do you have any simulations for your talk? 14:29 < Taek> bsm1175321: the edge sorting method creates a sorting by starting with a parent and choosing which child to use as the direct child, based on which child has the most 'votes' on its edge 14:29 < Taek> it's therefore plain to see that the only way to get a different history is to add blocks such that another child has more votes 14:29 < Taek> *an edge to a different child gets more votes 14:30 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:30 < Taek> So you've got 3 children, and their edges have votes 5-7-2, you know that you can reorg the history at that point by adding just 2 blocks 14:30 < Taek> uh, actually I think it takes 3 14:31 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:31 < Taek> regardless, you've got an easy way to quantify the difficulty of changing history 14:31 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:31 < bsm1175321> Taek: my simulator will make fat DAGs, skinny DAGs, tall DAGs and short DAGs, and you can apply whatever rules you want to it. ;-) Let me help you make a simulation and graphs by next week. 14:31 < Taek> the missing number here is that we don't know what % of the hashrate is currently confirming the '7' block vs. the '5' block 14:31 < Taek> bsm1175321: that sounds great, I think it would be very good to use your simulation code. I don't have any 14:32 < bsm1175321> The other simulation code you may want to consider is simbit: https://github.com/ebfull/simbit if you prefer javascript over python 14:33 < Taek> 7v5 is not very convincing though, especially if the dag is like 3-5 blocks wide. But if the vote count is more like 12 vs 60, then you've got a pretty high certainty that most of the hashrate is working on the 60 edge instead of the 12 edge 14:33 < Taek> (well, unless your dag is like 60 wide, in which case you definitely need to wait longer) 14:33 < bsm1175321> I found an awful lot of suprising edge cases when making actual simulations, and my "cohort" algorithm went through at least 3 iterations before I got it right. 14:34 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:35 < bsm1175321> Mine uses jupyter and graph_tool. If you can get that installed and run the notebook, I can help you implement your rules and simulate them. 14:35 < bsm1175321> https://github.com/mcelrath/braidcoin 14:35 < Taek> let's move the simulation help to ##braids 14:35 < bsm1175321> Sure thing 14:38 < andytoshi> kanzure: o.O i was just talking about this today, i'm thrilled that cloudflare has the same idea (and is doing something with it) 14:38 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:41 < qpm> tx: kanzure: that is excellent news, thanks for sharing 14:42 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:43 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:46 -!- droark [~droark@68.68.65.222] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 14:47 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:47 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:55 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping 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