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05:49 < waxwing> andytoshi: so for Definition 6 in the MW draft, in the verify step, i'm taking "computes P as the sum of all p" as meaning "s" rather than p, i just want to check: the verifier only receives the sum, P, right, not computes the sum from the list of elements (that would reveal the private key wouldn't it?)
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05:56 < waxwing> oh, the next page discusses this. it seems i haven't understood it yet.
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06:20 < waxwing> hmm no it's not about the sum, that doesn't make any difference, it seems i didn't get the meaning of the previous line "Next it sets s=" (there is a typo on that line, not sure if that might be throwing me)
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06:23 < waxwing> i guess "s" there should be the set of curve points not scalars
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06:38 < waxwing> ok i think i get how it works, if instead of "s={sk*H_2(x_i)}0..n" it read maybe "s={pk*H_2(x_i)}0..n". i can see how you get the sinking and summability there.
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07:24 < andytoshi> waxwing: no, the verifier receives the entire signature and does the summing itself
07:24 < andytoshi> there are no secret keys anywhere in that..
07:25 < andytoshi> what is the typo on the previous line?
07:25 < andytoshi> oh, well, i should change "sets" to "outputs"
07:26 < andytoshi> and i guess i could change the p's in `Verify` to s's, although they are all consistent
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07:59 < waxwing> andytoshi: it says "s = {sk * H_2(x_i}0..n" (no closing parenthesis), trivial typo, but i just didn't get that line; sk is the secret key in defn 6, no?
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08:01 < waxwing> and i was saying if it was pk (so curve points) it would make sense
08:03 < waxwing> ah, H2 is a hash "with values in G2", so that's what i missed. it outputs curve points.
08:04 < waxwing> ok then all clear i think, apart from the trivial close parens
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08:32 < cjd> andytoshi: is it possible that we might implement a varient of MW in bitcoin by adding an input sig type which instead of signing the tx, signs a MW empty-string sig which needs to be included in that block ?
08:33 < cjd> additionally if we don't mask the amounts (I know this erodes the privacy significantly) then it's at as post quantum as bitcoin at least after the block is completed
08:34 < cjd> s/at//
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09:06 < andytoshi> waxwing: ah awesome thanks
09:07 < andytoshi> cjd: pretty sure yes, but you lose a lot of scaling benefit, i haven't thought through all the details
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09:32 < cjd> yeah the scaling is interesting but my intuition is that people are going to have more difficulty accepting a coin where you can't point to your money in the chain and say "that's mine"
09:33 < cjd> also being able to count up the money in a block in the inputs and outputs w/ pencil and paper will give people a lot more warm-and-fuzzies
09:33 < bsm1175321> cjd: People do not publicly display their bank account balances to others, and for good reason.
09:34 < bsm1175321> I agree with you on trusting the magic moon math though...
09:34 < cjd> fungibility is a challenge to bitcoin right now, maybe lightning will fix that and maybe lightning is still 5 years out
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09:35 < cjd> o/t q:  does anyone know of a phone with discrete baseband which you can turn off, reset, etc from the application processor ?
09:35 < cjd> and which does not have ability to read all of your ram
09:36 < andytoshi> cjd: i'm confused, you can absolutely point to your money in a mimblewimble chain
09:36 < andytoshi> and you can add everything to 0 by hand if you're interested in doing a bunch of EC cals
09:36 < andytoshi> calcs*
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09:37 < cjd> sort of, but CT means you can't know how much it it (without trusting math)
09:38 < cjd> All I'm suggesting is that telling NORPs to put their money in a big elliptic curve ring and it will be safe might be difficult, but if you can prove me wrong then excellent
09:39 < andytoshi> you have to "trust math" with non-CT, numbers in the blockchain are not decimal-encoded strings
09:39 < andytoshi> and you absolutely have to trust math to believe that a utxo entry is not spent, and cannot be spent except by its owner
09:40 < cjd> I think what makes people feel good is that they can enter a key which they know is theirs into any block explorer and it will confirm for them that X btc is there
09:41 < nsh-> that can be preserved somewhat
09:41 < cjd> but I confess that I'm just hypothesizing here, what makes people adopt or not adopt a technology is a difficult problem
09:41 < andytoshi> *shrug* bitcoin has never had "is usable with paypal's trust model" as a goal
09:42 < andytoshi> and honestly i'd be quite concerned if i could go to random websites and they would show me my bank balance
09:42 < nsh-> i think rather people like to have their solvency confirmed by third parties for psychological reasons
09:43 < waxwing> cjd: people go to considerable lengths to regain some of the privacy lost in the bitcoin model. although i do agree in a very general sense, that the more trivially transparent a system is, the better for *some* purposes - just not the ordinary spending personal money sense.
09:43 < andytoshi> nsh-: sure. they can take a utxo entry and verify for themselves that it has the right amount of money on it, and they can ask third porties to verify that the utxo exists
09:44  * nsh- nods
09:44 < cjd> This is a bit of a bar-conversation, in the end either people want this or they don't and the only way to really be sure is to test it out, but I think there is something to be learned from the way Monero uses a view-key to allow auditing
09:45 < waxwing> cjd: CT has that kind of auditing.
09:45 < andytoshi> waxwing: with MW it's a bit more complicated. but it can absolutely be done
09:45 < nsh-> MW loses auditability by definition unless there is state kept externally
09:45 < waxwing> right, i forgot actually, MW is different, sorry
09:46 < andytoshi> if you have a MW commitment C, you can add an offset P (and sign with P to show you're not offsetting the value), and reveal the opening of C+P
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09:47 < andytoshi> nsh-: well presumably an auditor will ask for whatever state s/he needs
09:47  * nsh- nods
09:48 < nsh-> so it's a wallet dev + UX concern i guess
09:48 < andytoshi> yeah. and MW has enough of those already :)
09:48 < nsh-> lol
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09:54 < waxwing> andytoshi: so if i understood it right, you need the sinking signature element only for the compactification, but you consider it impractical without, due to the size of rangeproofs?
10:00 < andytoshi> waxwing: without the sinking signatures you have to validate a sig for every tx in the history
10:00 < andytoshi> the rangeproofs are unrelated
10:01 < andytoshi> the sinking signatures let me compact 15Gb+ of signatures into less than a meg .. otherwise i wouldn't want them, they require pairings and they tie transactions to blockheights so that they'll be invalidated by reorgs
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10:18 < waxwing> yeah the "require pairings" part i understood would be a big deal; on the "validate a sig for every tx in the history", here are you talking about the 1 (canonical) tx per block?
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17:30 < kanzure> collective signing thingy https://github.com/dedis/cosi
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17:32 < kanzure> https://github.com/dedis/cothority
17:33 < kanzure> "In the current prototype, CoSi witness servers do not validate or check the messages you propose in any way; they merely serve to provide transparency by publicly attesting the fact that they have observed and cosigned the message. A future CoSi release will add support for message validation plugins, by which the servers can apply application-specific checks to messages before signing off on them, e.g., to validate a collectively ...
17:33 < kanzure> ... signed blockchain." (collective signing paper again)
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17:47 < kanzure> https://botbot.me/freenode/ipfs/2016-10-03/?msg=74104539&page=1
17:47 < kanzure> some ipfs/ipld things about why they aren't doing merkle dags https://botbot.me/freenode/ipfs/2016-10-03/?msg=74104556&page=1
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17:48 < kanzure> this is re: some design complaints i had about https://hash-archive.org/history/https://hash-archive.org/database.sql.gz and https://hash-archive.org/critical (which i think is a good idea although could be expanded with some merkle roots sprinkled in everwyhere)
17:49 < kanzure> https://github.com/ipld/specs/tree/master/ipld
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22:34 < Taek> Braids code
22:34 < Taek> https://play.golang.org/p/VrbhheFjkX
22:35 < Taek> This algorithm is stable and I would argue that it's safe/secure as long as the block time is ~1-2x the network propagation time
22:35 < Taek> but definitely starts having trouble if you've got an attacker that can make and propagate multiple blocks before an honest miner can propagate at least one block
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22:36 < Taek> uh, reworded. If the honest miner tries to propagate a block, the attacker sees it first, remines all the fees, and then propagates the mined block, the honest miner is in trouble
22:36 < Taek> and with the above algorithm the attacker can actually prevent the slow blocks from being confirmed indefinitely
22:37 < Taek> but only if you take the block time below like 15 seconds. At 30 or 60 seconds neither attack should be possible
22:41 < Taek> *the output from the above code can be fed into 'SageMath' to generate a graph that displays the nodes and their weighted edges.
23:02 < cjd> 403
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 03 00:00:11 2016