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04:08 < kanzure> "NP vs PSPACE" https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.09562
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04:48 < Taek> I don't think I've seen this discussed before
04:49 < Taek> But if you are adjusting the difficulty every block, miners large enough to selfish mine can set their timestamps
04:50 < Taek> Such that the middle blocks are lower difficulty, and then at the tail block the difficulty is adjusted back up again
04:50 < Taek> I'm sure the overall effect of this is largely insignificant
04:54 < Taek> maaku: per your talk, adjusting the difficulty every 30-50 blocks may have a lower error bar, but it does mean that malicious timestamps can have larger effects.
04:55 < maaku> Malicious timestamps can lower a difficulty only by having a corresponding raising effect the next time around.
04:56 < maaku> Assuming you fix the time traveler bug.
04:58 < maaku> But if you are talking about a more complicated controller, e.g. the first order filter or a 2nd order damped harmonic, then it's true some adversarial thinking is necessary
04:58 < maaku> I foreshadowed this in the talk and then forgot to come back to it...
04:59 < maaku> For the first order filter the effect is constrained by weight coefficients and gain, so it ends up being about the same manipulability as bitcoin today (1%ish). For other controller I haven't checked
05:03 < Taek> Adversarial timestamps are my only reservation, I really don't understand it well enough to assert whether it would be significant or not
05:05 < Taek> Being more responsive to hashrate changes is a definite gain, you can construct it to be more responsive and also more resistant to things like the difficulty raising attack t
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05:45 < bsm117532> Using median timestamps over a window prevents an attacker from having a larger effect than his hashrate should allow.
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05:48 < bsm117532> Using the 2nd order (damped harmonic oscillator) allows you to remove a parameter in favor of the "optimal" damping.  It requires you to set the driving frequency, which can't be any faster than the block rate.  So setting it to the average block rate, you can damp out hashrate slews that go high one block and low the next.
05:48 < bsm117532> If there are hashrate slew intervalss that are advantageous for an attacker due to e.g. an averaging window, the optimal damping condition should use the averaging window instead to set critical damping.
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05:52 < bsm117532> I'd still like to understand where maaku's 30-50 minimum comes from.  It must be related to an averaging interval.
05:54 < bsm117532> sqrt(2016) = 44.9...
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06:06 < bsm117532> Taek: let there be an interval dR for the block reward that miners are allowed to write themselves, let there also be a target interval dT that would be allowed, where the miner's reward R \propto T.  So rewards are proportional to target (this makes merging easier since inverse targets can be directly added).
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06:08 < bsm117532> For blocks within dR and dT of each other, they could use the algorithm you presented (work-weighting, with ties broken by a PRNG), while for "merges" that result from a longer network split and disagreement on dR or dT, they could be allowed, except the lower work branch would have its transactions disfavored in the case of a double-spend WRT the higher-work branch.
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06:10 < bsm117532> The reward function R(t) is a pain in the ass here.  Merging would be straightforward if the R(t) was a constant.  For reference the window dR ~ 150 satoshis (at time 0, about 18 satoshis today) given the dt window of ~6s as measured by Bitcoin's orphan rate.
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06:29 < kanzure> "Privacy-preserving methods for sharing financial risk exposures" http://www.princeton.edu/~eabbe/publications/AKL_AER.pdf
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07:06 < bsm117532> Actually, I wonder if abandoning Satoshi's reward-halving in favor of a reward that is directly proportional to 1/(target) would be an impossible suggestion...the gains due to CPU->GPU->ASIC and economies of scale have largely been squeezed out already...
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07:10 < bsm117532> Probably impossible, but if one started a new coin and ASIC mining hardware already existed, you could avoid the difficulty-attack games entirely.
07:13 < musalbas> having a reward that grows with target does not necessarily mean a higher value reward. if lots of coins suddenly start getting created and dumped on exchanges, it would cause a lower actual reward for higher difficulty
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07:16 < bsm117532> Why?  It would drag the value of all coins down...  It's the same with physical mining.  You don't want to build a new mine and dump all your gold at once...
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07:18 < Eliel_> grows with target? I read that as a reward that shrinks in the same proportion as target increases.
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07:22 < bsm117532> Eliel_: you're correct: We're describing Reward = R_0/target for some initial reward R_0.  Satoshi's formula is R(t) = R_0 exp(-t/tau) where t=time, tau = T_H/ln(2) and T_H = halving time (2 years).
07:23 < bsm117532> Having the reward proportional to target makes merging of two chains easy -- the reward is independent of time and independent of the relative hashrate on the two chains.
07:24 < bsm117532> If you make it proportional to time, you have to "fix up" rewards that might have been inappropriately allocated when considering both chains.
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09:54 < Taek> Moore's law still seems to be holding, so I don't think you want reward directly proportional to difficulty, unless like 50% annual inflation is okay.
09:55 < Taek> I think for jute, I am most in favor of setting the difficulty based on a block's relative height, and then letting the max gap sort out the rest.
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09:56 < bsm117532> Can you define "relative height" and "max gap"?
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09:57 < Taek> Also in favor of having the difficulty adjust more frequently. Every 3 days instead of 2 weeks perhaps.
09:58 < Taek> "relative height": the height that the block appeared to be at when it was the tip block
09:58 < bsm117532> Halving is a synchronous event though, which is why I'm advocating for an asynchronous, windowed solution.
09:58 < Taek> "actual height": the height of the block after it has been merged with all other threads
09:59 < bsm117532> Isn't that definition of height going to bounce around a lot though?
09:59 < Taek> "gap height": the difference between the actual height and relative height
09:59 < Taek> It'll bounce around for a minute or two, but then settle
09:59 < bsm117532> \
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10:00 < bsm117532> But can't each new block set the height to 1 by creating a merge with the genesis block?
10:00 < Taek> Sia adjusts inflation every single block. So far this has worked out well for us
10:01 < Taek> A block's relative height will be 2 if it only points to the genesis block
10:01 < bsm117532> I've been thinking of referring to the actual summed work rather than height.  In Bitcoin they're equivalent, in a braid they're not.  But it's easy to add all the work of your ancestors.
10:02 < Taek> I do mean 'summed work of all ancestors' every time I say height.
10:02 < bsm117532> This lets you completely discard graph structure.
10:02 < Taek> It's just easier to say height
10:02 < bsm117532> aha, great! ;-)
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10:04 < bsm117532> Another question from your talk...you suggested seeding a PRNG to decide among parents during a merge, when the parents are all of equal height/summed work.  I've come around on this idea, and I like it.  But why not just use (block hash) mod (# parents) instead, so you don't have to pull in a PRNG algorithm?
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10:05 < Taek> That's what I do in the example code :)
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10:05 < bsm117532> This gets at my question before about having two different PoW's -- the new one is brute-forcing the PRNG to select...
10:05 < bsm117532> Awesome :-)
10:05 < Taek> A hash works great as a csprng
10:06 < bsm117532> yep yep
10:06 < Taek> I prefix with a salt as well, that way the input doesn't always have a ton of leading zeroes. Shouldn't *really* matter, but gives me peace of mind
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10:07 < bsm117532> I think that would only be an issue when (block hash) ~< (# parents) at which point we have lots of problems...
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10:20 < bsm117532> I'm trying to port the work weighting algorithm (I'm just going to call that "jute" from now on) to my python code.  I'll work on it more tonight...
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13:31 < kanzure> http://cr.yp.to/proto/netstrings.txt
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 12 00:00:19 2016