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01:25 < GreekMiner> morning guys!
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04:15 < skang404> Hey all, I requested for comments on a few scaling ideas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oydJoAcdlUw) but have got no response. I am trying to convert this to a paper so that it is more readable but need help. Would anyone of you be kind enough to comment to this please?
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05:36 < murch> skang404: Perhaps it would be helpful if you summarized the video in a few sentences and then elaborated on the points that people ask about?
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06:54 < nsh> what's the most practical scheme under which to achieve a zk proof of knowledge of a commitment preimage?
06:54 < nsh> (computationally zk)
06:57 < Alanius> under what commitment function?
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07:03 < nsh> well, i thought pederson might be easiest
07:03 < nsh> but would be interesting to see for arbitrary hash function
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07:03 < nsh> hal finney had a proposal involving malleable sigs and modified SHA1 circuit but seems a bit abstruse
07:05 < nsh> but i think it comes down to either garbling circuits or some homeomorphism in the commitment
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08:33 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> nsh maybe you could clarify the question a bit?
08:34 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> pedersen commitments are super easy to give a proof of knowledge for
08:37 < nsh> amiller, I want to prove that I know the preimage of a hash without telling you what the hash is. This is in the context of an auditor proving to someone that they've seen the whole merkle tree of a log, without the inefficiency of seeing all the data
08:37 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> zkpok{ (x,r): C = g^x h^r } .....  k1,k2 <- random in Zp,  c = H(g^k1 h^k2), return (g^k1 h^k2, k1 + cx, k2+cr)
08:37 < nsh> -musalbas
08:39 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> nsh can you use an interactive protocol
08:40 < nsh> any in particular?
08:40 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> where the auditor does aeveral rounds of iteration w the prover
08:40 < nsh> i saw one that is inefficient (i.e. takes 5 seconds)
08:40 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> which one?
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08:44 < nsh> https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/073
08:45 < nsh> (yao circuits)
08:45 < nsh> but if there's an efficient interactive one that would work too
08:46 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> libsnark takes only about a second to check one sha2 preimage
08:46 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> http://github.com/ebfull/lightning_circuit/
08:46 < bsm117532> http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/1767/proving-knowledge-of-a-preimage-of-a-hash-without-disclosing-it
08:46 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> to prove one i mean
08:47 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> if you run the same protocol in designated verifier mode, it should be the same performance, but without requiring trusted setup
08:47 < nsh> ah
08:48 < kanzure> maaku: ah, i thought you meant yesterday "after 13,104 blocks, all UTXOs in testnet become spendable, from 13,104 blocks after the fork" but in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8956 i see you mean only old utxos become spendable.
08:48 < nsh> is this being used for something? (lightning_circuit)
08:48 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> no, it was a one-off just used to answer someone's questiona bout snark performance
08:49 < nsh> i guess an issue here is trusted setup. musalbas's scheme is for an overlay to check proof-of-publication (and confirmation) of softare updates to secure against malicious updates
08:49 < nsh> e.g. you'd not apply a patchset from repos unless update logs were committed to some ledger
08:51 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> i see, but it would be better using cryptography rather than needing to trust this overlay network
08:51 < kanzure> you could use a public random string http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/Computational%20integrity%20with%20a%20public%20random%20string%20from%20quasi-linear%20PCPs%20-%202016.pdf
08:52 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> https://github.com/pepper-project/pequin
08:52 < kanzure> which one is pequin
08:52 < nsh> well, the network would be untrusted
08:53 < nsh> oh, libsnark doesn't require trusted setup?
08:53 < kanzure> libsnark requires trusted setup
08:53 < nsh> apparently not in designated verifier mode according to amiller
08:55 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> there a lot of tradeoffs and a few competing projects to choose between so i think there's not a 1-size-fits all answer.
08:57  * nsh nods
08:57 < waxwing> very interesting, so am i reading that 'lightning' github correctly as, you can prove interactively in about 10-20 seconds and in zk the knowledge of the preimage of a hash?
08:57 < waxwing> well, i guess it's doing more than 1 preimage there
08:58 < waxwing> or, no, is the key generation time not included
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09:00 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> yeah, key generation is included
09:00 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> altogether only 15 seconds total
09:00 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> so if you want to have someone prove it to you, you can generate your own parameters
09:01 < waxwing> i see, thanks
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10:37 < midnightmagic> w 49
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11:33 < musalbas> I wonder if it's possible to have a provably append-only log, or merkle tree, that has O(log(n)) efficient lookups, i.e. the tree doesn't just grow in height for every append operation, but also in breadth
11:34 < musalbas> So that we don't have trees with insane heights like 200,000, but we could have a maximum height of 128 that can represent every SHA1 hash
11:35 < musalbas> but obviously the hard part is making it append-only, since the root hash will keep changing
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11:39 < musalbas> but then again... I guess fundamentally such a tree will just tell if a hash has been seen or not
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11:59 < aj> musalbas: append only merkle trees -- that's what peter todd's merkle mountain range stuff is good at; also described in rfc6962
12:00 < musalbas> will take a look thanks
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12:11 < musalbas> yeah so the mountain range stuff is basically it
12:12 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> musalbas i dont think merkle mountain range is necessary
12:13 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> nor necessarily solves the problem
12:13 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> it depends on what kind of lookup you want
12:13 < musalbas> what does then?
12:13 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> do you want to have "non-membership" proofs/
12:13 < musalbas> yes
12:13 < uiuc-slack3> <amiller> ok then of the three alternatives, 1) orinary merkle tree, 2) merkle mountain range, 3) merkle trie or balanced merkle trie, only 3) will work for you
12:14 < musalbas> maybe this was discussed before, but I'm alluding to it in the context of a blockchain where all transaction outputs are folded into one hash
12:14 < musalbas> i see
12:15 < kanzure> musalbas ignored my links :(
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12:16 < musalbas> kanzure, the 10 of them you linked to me in the other channel?
12:16 < kanzure> yes
12:17 < musalbas> i read the mountain range stuff you linked, but i didn't realize it did what i was asking for until now :)
12:17 < kanzure> also, for folding outputs into one hash, you probably want a merkle sum tree
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12:20 < musalbas> but i should read the client-side validation stuff
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14:27 < kanzure> antikernel/azonenberg video http://www.iacr.org/cryptodb/data/paper.php?pubkey=27850
14:28 < petertodd> musalbas: if what you want is non-membership proofs, you want merkelized key-value trees, not MMR's; I have an implementation here: https://github.com/proofchains/python-proofmarshal/blob/master/proofmarshal/merbinnertree.py
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14:57 < aj> petertodd: non-membership proofs seem fine with MMRs, presuming they're added in key order; you just provide paths to the immediately prior and immediate successor nodes
14:59 < sipa> aj: i believe petertodd talks about append-only structures, so they're not key ordered
15:02 < aj> sipa: they are if the key increases monotonically (like a timestamp, or if you're trying to prove the value corresponding to a key doesn't match)
15:03  * kanzure mumbles about modelica things
15:04 < brguy> is this channel OK with newbie questions? :-)
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15:08 < fluffypony> brguy: don't ask to ask, just ask
15:09 < brguy> Why Bitcoin is not the first-option for smart-contract?
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15:09 < cjd> So Vitalik could make money
15:09  * cjd runs
15:09 < musalbas> lol
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15:15 < brguy> haha, but technically nothing stops from using it for that reason, right?
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15:25 < danrobinson> brguy: One reason is that Bitcoin Script is too limited to implement all but a limited range of smart contracts
15:28 < danrobinson> There's no realistic way to implement a state machine
15:30 < danrobinson> You'd need something like a CheckOutputVerify opcode: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/MES16.pdf
15:32 < kanzure> ( http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/covenants/ )
15:33 < brguy> danrobinson: then a good reason people won't look for Bitcoin is because of that, not because it is needed a project to implement smart contracts on Bitcoin?
15:34 < brguy> I've felt like it was a bit hard from an implementation point of view, but didn't imagine there was "no realistic way"
15:40 < danrobinson> Yeah, it would almost certainly require improvements to the protocol. CheckOutputVerify to start, but probably more (i.e. loops, string concatenation opcodes that aren't disabled, some kind of eval...)
15:41 < cjd> oh yeah but they're limiting Ethereum a bit too because arbitrary execution turns out to be attackable
15:41 < danrobinson> And once you get beyond a certain degree of complexity you probably need something like gas to limit execution
15:42 < sipa> in general, you don't aftually need to be able to run arbitrary instruction
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15:43 < sipa> all you need to be able to is, is prove that you were allowed to reach the state you're bringing the system in
15:44 < JackH> is that MAST? or would more than MAST be required?
15:44 < sipa> doing thatbin a compact, efficient, and privacy-preserving way is much harder
15:44 < sipa> mast is a step along the way imho
15:45 < Taek> Ethereum clearly is running into a ton of issues, not the least of which is that you can't tell if a script is valid without running it
15:45 < sipa> and that you reveal your script to the whole world
15:46 < sipa> and that it requires a ton of space
15:46 < Taek> I'm glad that Bitcoin has chosen to not support it, the field just needs a lot more work.
15:47 < JackH> would be nice to attract more mainstream developers though
15:47 < JackH> its way to hardcore right now for all of us who are not sipa
15:48 < Taek> JackH: mainstream developers are exactly some of the problems that Ethereum is having. The DAO was built by people who were vastly underqualified, and a lot of people got hurt
15:49 < brguy> hence my problem to trust Ethereum
15:49 < JackH> Taek, I know and I probably just say that it would be great if we had it solved by now. Not solved in the Ethereum way
15:49 < sipa> i'd just be glad if we get to solve it eventually
15:50 < sipa> mainstream attraction has brought hype, politics and drama
15:50 < sipa> not solutions
15:51 < brguy> sipa: I've seen the same problem in other open source projects, mainstream attraction is only good after a very good and stable basis
15:51 < sipa> mainstream attraction has also brought money, and indirectly pays my salary
15:51 < sipa> so i guess i won't complain too loudly
15:52 < JackH> as long as we can keep mainstream out of the main protocol and turn the attention to secondary layers I think we will all benefit a lot
15:52 < brguy> that's the good part, not only funding, but with more people involved it gets more stable, like a paradox
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15:56 < JackH> hey sipa if you are still here. Can you elaborate on this? Segwit is sold as a fix to malleability and a throughput increase (both true and very important). But you may have also heard that developers are more excited by the "scripting" functionality Segwit adds.
15:56 < JackH> I found it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cx6el/mast_a_new_bip_based_on_segwit_uses_a_merkle_tree/
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15:57 < JackH> what functionality?
16:00 < sipa> JackH: script versioning, i guess
16:00 < sipa> i don't visit reddit
16:01 < JackH> this is a rare thread that doesnt spin into hate
16:02 < sipa> mast is a means of hiding branches of scripts that are not executed
16:02 < sipa> and it builds on segwit, because part of segwit is the "script versioning" feature
16:02 < JackH> ah yes just reading that now on bitcoincore
16:02 < sipa> which could technically have been done independently, but is much easier together
16:02 < JackH> how did I miss this too...
16:03 < sipa> it turns every script change into a potential softforkable upgrade
16:04 < JackH> damn this upgrade is a solid one
16:05 < sipa> mast is just a prototype right now
16:06 < JackH> yes, was referring to segwit
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16:43 < bsm1175321> brguy: One can certainly do many kinds of interesting contracts with Bitcoin script, but it's limitations force you to engineer things with more client side logic.  As a consequence, Bitcoin usage tends to be more privacy-preserving.  I fear Ethereum errs on the side of placing way too much data in public contracts, and it will come back to bite casual implementors.
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18:16 < brguy> bsm1175321 I see.  Is there any framework for that nowadays? or under development? I will look it up.
18:17 < brguy> bsm1175321: and reading from what you've said and other people I think it may not be that difficult depending on the type of contract
18:21 < danrobinson> Not really. See previous discussion starting here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2016-09-24/?msg=73527720&page=1
18:23 < brguy> danrobinson: thanks :-)
18:24 < brguy> maaku: from that link above, I see you suggest something using haskell, right now I'm trying something with Elixir
18:28 < bsm1175321> brguy: There's no framework.  It makes Bitcoin smart contract development very difficult.  One needs to insert some distributed computing and zero knowledge proof magic.
18:28 < bsm1175321> But, I think the effort is worthwhile.  Making a global state machine is toxic to privacy and is the "easy way out".  I don't want to show everyone my bank balances, contracts, or dirty laundry.
18:30 < bsm1175321> brguy: That's a very interesting line of thought though...what would be required to create an arbitrary state machine, with some (selective) pieces public, given the restrictions of Bitcoin?
18:31 < bsm1175321> I think most of the time this will pull in a notion of "distributed consensus" about state variables which are not published on the blockchain.  But that's not an insurmountable problem...
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18:32 < bsm1175321> I'm currently working on a project which is using shamir's secret sharing to hold a pre-signed transaction, and the sharing membership set can change (though is far less than "everyone who can read the blockchain").\
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18:41 < kanzure> er, what's the point? someone is holding the pre-signed transaction prior to application of the secret sharing scheme, ya?
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18:50 < kanzure> "Phasing out SHA-1 on the public web" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12734970 https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2016/10/18/phasing-out-sha-1-on-the-public-web/
18:50 < bsm1175321> The entity holding the pre-signed transaction is the entity for whom the transaction matters.  (e.g. I pre-sign the transaction and distribute it because I know I'm going to lose my devices or get a new iphone)
18:51 < kanzure> i see.
18:51 < bsm1175321> So, I'm not concerned about "trusting myself" to correctly distribute the transaction.
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19:11 < brguy> bsm1175321: I'm actually thinking of transactions to export/import goods in my region, between countries. It would be cheaper with Bitcoin...
19:12 < brguy> But there are some standards and contracts that are needed for this kind of transaction that nowadays is only possible with banks, that does not accept Bitcoin
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19:13 < bsm1175321> brguy: Very interesting.  There are lots of interesting ways to use Bitcoin that might involve collateral but not payment, while keeping lots of information off-chain.
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19:25 < brguy> bsm1175321: exactly, keeping the information off-chain may be an advantage here actually, I just want to proof that there was a payment, or that the money exists
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19:32 < bsm1175321> brguy: We call this use affectionately "hash & smash" -- that is, placing proof of something-or-other into the chain.  This kind of use can often be aggregated into a single hash via a Merkle tree.  There are companies dedicated to this including Factom and open source alternatives like petertodd's opentimestamps, and my own company's offering which can be demoed at http://solidproof.co
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19:35 < brguy> bsm1175321: your company? mind if I PM you?
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 19 00:00:25 2016