--- Log opened Wed Oct 26 00:00:32 2016 00:18 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@h5-152-213-186.host.redstation.co.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@84-75-162-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zhdalebguoxtpgxv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:21 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@h88-150-224-74.host.redstation.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:21 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 00:27 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@7.red-83-47-85.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@7.red-83-47-85.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@176.227.198.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:46 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@h5-152-213-186.host.redstation.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:46 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 00:47 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1019:4099:5d9f:dd74:18a9:41d8] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:48 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:02 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.190] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:03 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.190] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:15 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@176.227.198.122] has quit [Quit: Topogetcyrpto] 01:20 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@118.69.35.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@118.69.35.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.161.50.223] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@101.78.224.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:49 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:50 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:59 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.161.50.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:09 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.76] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 -!- frenchie [50ec4908@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.236.73.8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:27 -!- frenchie [50ec4908@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.236.73.8] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35 -!- henrytill [~henrytill@unaffiliated/henrytill] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:42 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE38336.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:16 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.57.247] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:20 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@109.128.248.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@84-75-162-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [] 03:43 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:52 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@101.78.224.202] has quit [Quit: DigiByteDev] 04:03 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:08 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:10 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:10 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:20 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.57.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:45 -!- face [~face@mail.hmel.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50 < Taek> I'm beginning to think that having miners take tx fees is a bad idea. No matter the algorithm, there is a window of time where orphaning/sniping is more profitable than mining a new block (assuming the previous miner maximized his profits) 04:50 < Taek> That's not true 04:51 -!- jtimon [~quassel@211.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:52 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52 < Taek> Choosing to mine on something other than the main chain means your block has at most a 50% chance of being accepted. 04:52 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:53 < Taek> in the thought experiment of an infinitely deep transaction pool where all transactions have the same exact fee value, you can see that it's always beneficial to mine on the main chain 04:54 < Taek> Therefore there's some wiggle-room in algorithm design for finding incentive-compatible fee structures 04:55 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:55 < Taek> *assuming finite sized blocks 05:13 < Taek> A model where coins are destroyed in tx fees and re-created in the coinbase makes more sense. The expected reward for miners is therefore approximately constant over time. 05:13 < Taek> That is equivalent to a transaction fee pool 05:13 < Taek> Any sort of banning of transaction fees can always be circumvented by using other methods to get the payments to miners 05:13 < Taek> well, barring some sort of permissioned system 05:14 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: DigiByteDev] 05:23 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:36 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.190] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:54 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@7.red-83-47-85.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 05:54 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@131.155.203.84] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:02 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@131.155.203.84] has quit [Quit: irc] 06:04 < bsm117532> Taek "banning of tx fees can always be circumvented" -- yes, e.g. submit your block directly to the miner alongside a payment specifically to him, to get it in the next block. 06:07 < Taek> or leave an output in your transaction that's anyone-can-spend 06:10 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:16 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.190] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 06:19 < jtimon> yeah, miners should treat OP_TRUE outputs as fees to them, and claim them 06:30 < bsm117532> I've always found the mempool to be a weird concept. Why should a miner relay a transaction rather than try to claim it for himself? 06:32 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:36 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: DigiByteDev] 06:41 < Taek> it's good for usability of the system if transactions have a high probability of getting confirmed quickly 06:41 < Taek> also, why should full nodes relay transactions or blocks? 06:42 < Taek> if nobody does any relaying, the system breaks. Big miners might like the idea of hoarding transactions, but practically speaking it'll impact their orphan rate 06:43 < Taek> and even if it didn't, the p2p layer will get the transactions to the other miners anyway 06:57 -!- nabu [~nabu@5.153.233.114] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:06 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:06 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:11 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13 -!- da2ce7 [~da2ce7@opentransactions/dev/da2ce7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:16 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:20 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:25 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined 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Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 09:26 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@77.245.65.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@h88-150-224-74.host.redstation.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:27 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 09:41 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@7.red-83-47-85.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:45 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@109.128.248.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@77-254-12-108.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:43 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:48e7:8d80:692e:9cae] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:47 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@77.245.65.2] has quit [Quit: Topogetcyrpto] 11:00 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:05 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:18 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:30 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE38336.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:37 -!- forrestv [forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:41 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- forrestv [forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:50 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:14 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE38336.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:20 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipmlfobbgnauutig] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zmdmvydffoaeltpc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- Ylbam_ [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vhkxnygizvcjjeir] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24 -!- Ylbam_ [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-liayuwziqeunnewe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:28 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:46 -!- funkenstein_ [~bowler@unaffiliated/funkenstein] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46 -!- MoALTz [~no@77-254-12-108.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50 < Iriez> I wanted to share this here, because this is where most of the academics are. For those interested in studying behavior networks and emergent behavior on consensus, here is a highly valuable recently published paper on the topic 12:50 < Iriez> http://science.sciencemag.org.sci-hub.ac/content/354/6310/321.full 12:50 < Iriez> warning, direct link to pdf. 12:51 < Iriez> for those with publishing access, here is the article URL source 12:51 < Iriez> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/354/6310/321 12:53 < kanzure> social consensus is unrelated 12:54 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:56 < Iriez> unrelated to bitcoin? 12:56 < Iriez> (I was not trying to mix satoshi consensus with social consensus) 12:57 < Iriez> This is a psychology paper, not a technology paper, so I understand this. It was merely a tidbut for those looking to delve into the sociological aspects. 12:58 < Iriez> I figure time spent reading academic models on social behavior theory is better time spent than arguing on reddit with trolls, like I see some developers do :P 13:04 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: irc] 13:23 -!- nooblord [~Nooblord@190.8.85.77] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:29 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:31 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlyyzwcuqkgdzwox] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:45 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 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