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11:21 < bsm1175321> .title https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/871
11:21 < yoleaux> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2016/871
11:21 < bsm1175321> Blockchain-Free Cryptocurrencies. A Rational Framework for Truly Decentralised Fast Transactions
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11:33 < kanzure> they are doing an accumulative proof-of-work thing, i think
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11:39 < bsm1175321> How does that work?  I've been wanting for such an algorithm...
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12:34 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> What is accumulative proof of work
12:34 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> Is it like progress/sequential proof of work rather than memoryless proof of work
12:35 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> Is a chain of proof of work solutions like in Bitcoin not accumulative?
12:35 < bsm1175321> e.g. two PoW hashes can be combined into a single PoW hash with double the difficulty.
12:35 < Taek> amiller: what's the context?
12:37 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> That is how a chain of Bitcoin solutions work right
12:37 < bsm1175321> Yes, but you have to have the whole chain.
12:37 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> You add up the difficulty for each of the solutions in the chain
12:38 < Taek> it's only accumulative if a block commits to a target
12:38 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> Oh so this it is about making pow verification more efficient?
12:38 < bsm1175321> IOW imagine there was a single PoW hash that respresented the accumulated work of the entire chain.
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12:38 < Taek> nvm I withdraw, I'm not certain what the context is
12:39 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> Seems like just an efficiency improvement goal, not a new primitive
12:42 < bsm1175321> Taek: you may want to take a look at the paper I posted -- they have a blockless, transaction DAG.
12:44  * adlai got the impression, from a quick skim, that it's a 1-tx-per-block DAG, and the whole "no blocks, no chain" is just noise
12:44 < adlai> there are plenty of other ideas there which unfortunately don't get the same emphasis as the "no blocks" business
12:45 < Taek> Oh nice, I will read it
12:47 < musalbas> "instead of grouping individual transactions into
12:47 < musalbas> “verified” blocks strung into a blockchain, transactions themselves are responsible for vouching
12:47 < musalbas> for other previous transactions, in a graph-like rather than chain-like structure"
12:49 < Taek> "Select  the  maximum-height  or tallest  well-formed  transaction  not  yet  classi ed, and classify it as valid as well as all of its ancestors"
12:50 < Taek> I haven't read the whole paper yet but this is an easily exploitable method of choosing valid transactions
12:50 < Taek> It's the method Jute used to use, and it's broken
12:50 < Taek> An attacker can sit out, mine txns that reference other transactions, but never broadcast them
12:50 < Taek> They get this secret parasite chain that's got a much higher height than the public chain
12:51 < Taek> and then release it to execute double spends
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12:54 < bsm1175321> Doesn't look like they made that mistake: "For a transaction x, Height(x) is the total proof-of-work difficulty expended by all the ancestors of x."
12:54 < Taek> It's the same mistake
12:54 < bsm1175321> (p.15)
12:55 < Taek> The same strategy will still work
12:55 < Taek> because, you are including the public transactions, which means you get their work tallied in your height. But you also get the work of your private transactions
12:55 < Taek> so if you mine 10 transactions, you are premanently 10 txns ahead of the public chain, because you've got those 10 plus the whole public chain
12:56 < Taek> The sorting method I described in Milan has much stronger security properties with a simple, intuitive proof for why it's secure.
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12:59 < bsm1175321> Maybe you're right, they're doing something bizarre in sec 2.3 that is not simply summing work.
13:00 < bsm1175321> Their claim at the beginning of that section is wrong.  Summing work is not a computational difficulty...
13:00 < bsm1175321> Sure it's O(n) but you don't have to ever re-do the computation.
13:03 < bsm1175321> I think dumping aggregation of txs into blocks is a bad idea too -- consensus is defined by the existence of graph cuts (cohorts).  If the tx rate is roughly higher than 1 per (size of network in seconds), graph cuts are exponentially unlikely.  You have to restrict the block rate or the system never comes to consensus.
13:03 < bsm1175321> Iota seems to be making that mistake too.
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13:22 < Taek> Iota determines whether or not a transaction is valid by running a Monte-Carlo simulation
13:25 < bsm1175321> Or so they claim.  It's vaporware.
13:26 < Taek> I'm just pointing that out as a very terrible way to attempt consensus. The results of each simulation are going to be different, it's probabilistic!
13:26 < Taek> if two people don't get the same results when analyzing the validity of a transaction they'll get a fork
13:27 < kanzure> "A formal security analysis of the Signal messaging protocol" https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/1013.pdf
13:27 < bsm1175321> Taek: I agree.  I don't think Iota makes any sense at all, and I spent quite a bit of time trying to make sense of their word salads and no code. :-/
13:28 < bsm1175321> Taek have you made any more progress on Jute since Milan?
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13:50 < Taek> Had to catch up on some other work
13:50 < Taek> Hopefully progress in November though
13:50 < bsm1175321> I just saw an announcement for Sia 1.0.3.  Congrats ;-)
13:51 < bsm1175321> I've got a little physics paper to write this weekend.  But hopefully progress in November.
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15:00 < Taek> amiller: sorry for the confusion earlier
15:01 < Taek> by 'collaborative', the paper means that it's okay to have multiple POW solutions to a single parent block
15:01 < Taek> e.g., blocks are allowed to have multiple parents
15:01 < Taek> those multiple parents can "collaboratively" solve the puzzles to some common ancestor
15:03 < uiuc-slack1> <amiller> Like ghost?
15:05 < Taek> yeah I believe so
15:06 < Taek> yes
15:07 < Taek> for some reason the paper requires each transaction to have exactly two parents
15:08 < Taek> adlai: you are correct this paper is really about blocks that have a single transaction and multiple parents, not about discarding blocks altogether
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15:09 < bsm117532> I don't see the point of having two parents. Sometimes the second parent is redundant (you're forced to name another ancestor as the second parent) and sometimes you need more than 2 parents (when there are unmerged chain tips).
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15:33 < Taek> ok
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15:34 < Taek> With the construction of this paper, it's not only easy to double spend, I believe it's also easy to engage in selfish mining that's more successful than what you can achieve in Bitcoin
15:34 < Taek> because, multiple invalid transactions are not allowed
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15:35 < Taek> To orphan your competitors, first build up a private chain that includes all of the transactions in the public chain plus all of the transactions in the private chain
15:35 < Taek> do not introduce any conflicts yet
15:36 < Taek> at some point your private chain will have significantly more work in it than the public chain
15:36 < Taek> that's when you can introduce a conflict - mine a conflict to one of the newer transactions
15:36 < Taek> the whole public chain will be confirming the newer transaction
15:37 < Taek> but you will have a bunch of extra work in your private chain
15:37 < Taek> after some amount of time, designed to maximize the amount of work wasted by the public chain, you release your whole private chain
15:37 < Taek> your secret conflict will have a higher height than its public competitor
15:38 < Taek> every block that confirmed the public competitor is now invalid, and is in a chain with less work than the chain with the most work
15:38 < Taek> This attack can be executed with any amount of hashpower
15:38 < Taek> !
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15:39 < musalbas> wouldn't you need to retroactively insert the new transactions in your private chain, destroying all the proof-of-work you had
15:39 < Taek> you can plan ahead
15:40 < Taek> so the first transaction of my private chain is the one I will eventually double spend
15:40 < Taek> since it's private none of the public chain realizes it exists
15:40 < Taek> then once I've put a bunch of work on top of it, I can release the conflict to the public chain
15:40 < Taek> the most recent transaction in the private chain can include the entire public chain up until the point where my conflict is accepted
15:41 < musalbas> I don't see how you'd be able to 'tally the proof of work from others' into your private chain, because that PoW is on a chain building on top of the first transaction
15:41 < Taek> hold on I'll try to draw a graph
15:41 < Taek> eta 8 minutes
15:42 < musalbas> i would feel a bit guilty if you had to draw a graph just for me
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15:50 < musalbas> hmm i kind of see what you mean now
15:51 < Taek> http://imgur.com/a/7UCh1
15:52 < Taek> it's a little thrown together, but you can see the general concept
15:52 < Taek> A minority hashrate miner is able to throw away one block to cause 3 orphans in the competiton
15:53 < Taek> But, really the minority hashrate miner doesn't even need to throw away a block, merely announcing the transaction and having someone else mine it (since there are no public conflicts) is enough
15:53 < Taek> so basically zero-risk, virtually guaranteed successful double spend attempts that have the bonus of driving up the orphan rates of your competitors
15:53 < Taek> bad stuff
15:56 < Taek> (Is there somewhere I can post this criticism?)
15:57 < musalbas> there is a discussion 'forum' link at the bottom of https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/871
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16:00 < musalbas> there was also some other discussion of it here https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2016-09-12/?msg=72874075&page=2
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