--- Log opened Sun Nov 06 00:00:42 2016
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17:04 < Taek> I've said a few times in this channel that I don't think it's possible to do a fee pool because the miners can get paid out of band
17:04 < Taek> but, I thought that maybe you could have the miners commit to the entire mempool
17:05 < Taek> and then based on the hash of their block, a deterministic algorithm selects randomly from the mempool, weighted by tx/byte or something
17:05 < Taek> for incentive compatibility, you need:
17:05 < Taek> <Taek> 1. it's always to your benefit to include a tranasction with real fees
17:05 < Taek> <Taek> 2. it's never more rewarding to receive those fees out-of-band
17:05 < Taek> <Taek> 3. it's never profitable to add your own bogus transactions with fees to yourself
17:06 < Taek> with maybe some minimum required fee/byte based on Fn(mempool_size)
17:06 < Taek> I think you can achieve #1 & #2 with a flexcap, where larger mempool means a bigger block is accepted
17:07 < Taek> and then #3 is not so bad either, becuase if your own transaction is randomly selected, your effective fee gain is 0 where it could have been some other non-zero-fee transaction
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17:07 < Taek> so you just have to make sure that adding your own transactions does not grow the allowed block size by too much
17:08 < andytoshi> i think it's hard -not- to get #3 in any scheme
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17:10 < andytoshi> does setting a "100% chance of inclusion" threshold then having every transaction independently selected with fee/byte / threshold probability, do it?
17:11 < Taek> hmm that's an interesting thought. A miner wouldn't know how big their block might end up being
17:12 < Taek> which I think is totally fine
17:12 < andytoshi> true. so the mempool they commit to would maybe have to be capped in size
17:12 < andytoshi> but ya, i think this is fine
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17:14 < Taek> I think min_fee would need to be exponential in the size of the mempool to guarantee safety
17:14 < andytoshi> what does min_fee do specifically?
17:14 < Taek> caps the mempool size
17:14 < Taek> so, if mempool is 100MB, min_fee for each transaction would be (for example) 10 satoshis per byte
17:15 < Taek> hmm
17:15 < andytoshi> mm i think this makes miners able to make DoS blocks
17:15 < Taek> yeah that's why I was saying it'd need to be exponential in the size of the mempool
17:15 < andytoshi> better to just keep the 4Mb weight cap and apply this to "if every transaction was selected" i think
17:15 < andytoshi> maybe you could be a bit smarter than that
17:15 < Taek> If you don't flexcap it I don't see how you achieve #1
17:16 < andytoshi> well if the block is full i don't see that you can get #1
17:16 < Taek> if your mempool consists of the 4MB of highest-fee txns, you can only lose money by adding lower fee txns
17:16 < andytoshi> yeah, i think that's intrinsic to a system with a blocksize cap
17:16 < Taek> but with flexcap you've got some wiggle room
17:17 < Taek> except you have to watch out for DoS blocks now
17:17 < Taek> some miner throwing 5000 BTC into fake fees with the intention of making 15MB blocks
17:17 < andytoshi> right
17:17 < andytoshi> but i see what you're getting at now
17:20 < Taek> Depending on how happy people are to have a deep mempool...
17:20 < Taek> you could make the cap scale very slowly
17:20 < Taek> e.g. 10MB mempool -> 50kb block
17:23 < Taek> hmm at 100 sats/byte minimum that's still only 1 Bitcoin per MB of mempool.
17:23 < Taek> Someone with 5000 BTC could afford a 5 GB mempool at that rate
17:23 < Taek> Maybe the numbers do not work out so well
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18:06 < AbelianGrape> Let's say I want to build some software that looks at the confirmed balance of a given address; what is a good Bitcoin node implementation with a convenient API for doing that? The address will not be known in advance, but the node software can also expect that any transactions to that address will only happen *after* the node has been made aware of the address.
18:07 < AbelianGrape> The use-case is for an automated payment platform. I just need to write some software that provides an address it's expecting to receive money at, and gets a notification when a transaction sending money to that address is confirmed.
18:07 < Taek> #bitcoin-dev
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18:08 < AbelianGrape> Ah, my mistake. What is this channel for?
18:09 < Taek> !topic
18:09 < gribble> This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
18:09 < AbelianGrape> Whoops! Thanks
18:11 < andytoshi> Taek: they also can double spend within the mempool to save fees, and get away with it with nontrivial probability
18:11 < andytoshi> this needs some calcs.
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21:34 < Taek> I don't think that matters
21:34 < Taek> *andytoshi
21:35 < Taek> If you double spend in the mempool and don't get caught, the canonical blockchain is still valid
21:35 < Taek> And if you do get caught, your block is tossed
21:36 < Taek> Err, you're guaranteed to get caught if both sides of the double spend are selected
21:37 < Taek> Unless you are suggesting that one might be able to boost the selection probability/value for high-value transactions by having them included multiple times
21:37 < Taek> In which case perhaps that is a valid attack
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22:09 < aj> Taek, andytoshi: if you have "mempool is 100MB -> 1e9 satoshis must be paid to "CLTV 1008 blocks"" you get an okay flexcap.
22:11 < aj> err, "block is 100MB" i mean... i don't see how mempool commitments would work; how would you convince anyone to actually send the mempool contents that match the commitment?
22:15 < rusty> aj: I think the idea is you select some "randomly" and those get confirmed too, IIUC.
22:16 < rusty> (randomly == via block hash)
22:17 < aj> rusty: right, but then you just hide some high fee paying ones to yourself and keep selecting randomly until they're not found?
22:18 < rusty> aj: discarding blocks is expensive.
22:20 < aj> rusty: oh, you mean the mined block, interesting
22:23 < aj> rusty: decent chance there's a reasonable tradeoff to make there: if it's profitable to mine 1MB blocks at 50s/byte, then it's more profitable to mine 2MB blocks at 40s/byte even if you discard 35% of them (assuming all income is fees)
22:23 < rusty> aj: I think numbers are acutely effected by how many txs you have to reveal.
22:24 < aj> rusty: i don't see how you'd reveal any txes that aren't included in the block
22:25 < aj> rusty: (if you did, they'd be essential to verify the block was valid, so... include them in the block?)
22:25 < rusty> aj: no, you have to send the merkle proofs and txs with the block.
22:26 < aj> rusty: so, all the txes you mine (and actually collect the fees from), you include in the block, along with a merkle proof that they match the random subset of the merkle tree you committed to in the block
22:27 < rusty> Basically, yeah.  Which means you drop fees for those proven ones, interestingly.
22:28 < aj> rusty: which proven ones? why would you prove extra transactions, without also mining them (ie, confirming them and collecting their fees)?
22:28 < aj> rusty: otherwise you'd need eg 1.5MB of data for a 1MB block, then the .5MB might get confirmed in the next block but would have to be repeated?
22:28 < aj> weird
22:29 < rusty> NM, I didn't read the backscroll and was thinking of something else.
22:30 < aj> also, if you're randomly selecting transactions, that'd make it hard to do fee price discrimination based on how urgent people wanted to get their transactions in...
22:30 < aj> rusty: reference to the "something else" ?
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23:12 < fluffypony> https://whispersystems.org/docs/specifications/x3dh/
23:12 < fluffypony> .title https://whispersystems.org/docs/specifications/x3dh/
23:12 < yoleaux> Open Whisper Systems >> Specifications >> The X3DH Key Agreement Protocol
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 07 00:00:43 2016