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#bitcoin-wizards 06:45 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:46 < Chris_Stewart_5> So i'm reading BIP146 right now, and I don't understand why 'the relevant signature must be an empty byte array' How does this introduce malleability? 06:46 -!- ipwn [~ipwn@bl18-232-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:46 < Chris_Stewart_5> So we can't push OP_FALSE onto the stack unless we were evaluating an empty signature? 06:48 < Chris_Stewart_5> this is wrt to NULLFAIL 06:48 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:49 < instagibbs> Chris_Stewart_5, #bitcoin-core-dev 06:50 < instagibbs> or #bitcoin 06:50 < Chris_Stewart_5> Oh, oops 06:50 < instagibbs> :) 06:51 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:05 < bsm1175321> I was thinking again this morning about a DAG/braid combined with Mimblewimble, after we had a nice journal club yesterday on this paper: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/871.pdf ["Blockchain-Free Cryptocurrencies"] 07:05 < bsm1175321> I think the combination might actually be workable. The issue is that a single double-spend "poisons" all the other transactions it is coinjoined with. 07:06 < bsm1175321> So a single double-spend causes an entire group of unrelated transactions to be discarded. 07:07 < bsm1175321> However, it's straightforward for miners to back-out the double-spend, and create a new block that excludes it (as long as they don't discard transactions after they're mimblewimbled-up) 07:08 < bsm1175321> So miners would need to keep a backlog of previously seen transactions, and the mechanism for resolving double-spends would have to be markedly different from Bitcoin's. 07:08 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzszcbvfhoxfsrps] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:09 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xlyowwgjumwurgcr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:11 < bsm1175321> Is there any work out there as regards other forms of coinjoins and double-spending? Any form of coinjoin essentially has this problem. 07:11 < bsm1175321> You could attack a coinjoin by contributing to it, and then double-spending your contribution. 07:14 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:15 < bsm1175321> Googled this: https://m.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3f5ktq/a_doublespent_joinmarket_coinjoin_transaction/ 07:15 < bsm1175321> which just reminded me why I don't read Reddit... 07:20 -!- v20100 [~20100@166.62.165.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:23 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:23 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.68] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.68] has quit [Client Quit] 07:30 < waxwing> there is a scenario in JM in which double spends occur naturally; a participant does not consider a utxo "used" until he sees the new join tx on the network, if there is a propagation delay he will happily keep reusing the utxo in new joins (otherwise DOS). it seems to be very rare (as you'd expect). it could also happen due to people doing weird things (custom code for example) 07:30 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:38 < bsm1175321> I fear that this tactic could be used as an attack to effectively neuter coinjoins -- preventing them from working most of the time. 07:47 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@131.155.201.48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:50 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51 < waxwing> but if there's a double spend, one goes through 07:52 < bsm1175321> By submitting such a double-spend, I have some probability to prevent the coinjoin from going through. 07:53 < waxwing> we always just looked at it as, well, you're in a race with other customers to get your join to go through. if someone wants to attack the system by providing income for makers they are just going to incentivize more makers. 07:53 < waxwing> i'm not saying the observation is nothing, just, well, not really sure of its status compared with other potential dos vectors 07:54 < bsm1175321> It's not DOS, it's preventing the coinjoin from working. (maybe that's what you mean there...) If I create *many* double-spends and submit half to the coinjoin, I can with good probability prevent the coinjoin from getting mined. 07:55 < bsm1175321> And there are certainly actors that want to prevent anonymization... 07:56 < waxwing> oh i misunderstood, you're talking about double spends as inputs? 07:56 < bsm1175321> Yes, one side of the doublespend is *in* the coinjoin. 07:56 < waxwing> we don't allow unconfirmed inputs 07:57 < bsm1175321> What does that mean? I'm confused. 07:57 < waxwing> sorry, my confusion, it's dinner time here :) 07:57 < waxwing> i had in mind multiple coinjoins as double spends, you have in mind 1 coinjoin and 1(+) other non-cjs 07:58 < waxwing> in that case, my economic argument doesn't apply. 07:58 * bsm1175321 goes to read about JoinMarket 08:00 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:03 < waxwing> best summary of current situation is that, Takers/consumers need to provide commitments which rate limit snooping or attacking behaviour, but on Maker side it's still possible to fail-to-complete as a DOS currently in various ways. 08:06 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@131.155.201.48] has quit [Quit: zzz] 08:07 < bsm1175321> reading adlai's presentation: https://scalingbitcoin.org/milan2016/presentations/D1%20-%202%20-%20Adlai%20Chandrasekhar.pdf 08:08 < kanzure> also http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/joinmarket/ 08:09 < kanzure> added link to slides. 08:10 < bsm1175321> For those interested in this topic, we will have a debate on privacy and fungibility in two weeks (Nov 29) in New York: https://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/events/235042444/ 08:12 < waxwing> bsm117532: you can find out some more detail about joinmarket in the joinmarket-docs repo in the joinmarket-org github 08:13 < waxwing> the high-level-design doc hasn't been updated for 0.2 but the messaging-protocol doc has 08:13 < waxwing> you can also just ask in #joinmarket of course :) 08:13 < bsm1175321> Yeah I'm reading that... ;-) 08:15 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.68] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:16 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.68] has quit [Client Quit] 08:16 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: DigiByteDev] 08:18 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:23 -!- igno_peverell 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#bitcoin-wizards 11:17 < toshiis> join this forum: http://www.bitcoinblackhat.com/member.php?action=register&referrer=10332 11:17 < toshiis> you may like it 11:23 -!- se3000 [~textual@38.125.163.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:49 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:59 -!- v20100 [~20100@166.62.165.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:04 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o kanzure] by ChanServ 12:21 -!- toshiis was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by kanzure [toshiis] 12:21 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o kanzure] by kanzure 12:21 -!- tunafizz [~tuna@c-71-207-55-31.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:24 < waxwing> bsm117532: any chance that meetup will be recorded? i remember in the old days some of those meetings were, but haven't seen any last couple of years 12:26 < waxwing> pretty good list on that page. only one i can think of that isn't mentioned is stealth addresses. as has become standard coinshuffle is listed as separate from coinjoin, which i think is wrong, but at some point i'll give up saying that :) 12:27 < waxwing> would love to see someone try to do tumblebit IRL as a standalone tumble (it's listed under payment channels there which is right ofc but the simpler classic tumble is kind of right there ready to use. more or less i think) 12:28 -!- jtimon [~quassel@186.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35 < bsm1175321> We don't plan on recording. Some people in this space like their privacy, and this is a debate/discussion which will bounce around the room. 12:36 < bsm1175321> Would be awesome if we could get some implementors of the referenced protocols to join 12:36 < waxwing> understood 12:37 < waxwing> i was vaguely musing the other day how it would be nice to have some kind of fungibility conference, mainly because i had in mind exactly that kind of bewilderingly long list. it's such a huge topic though. 12:45 < bsm1175321> It's developing rapidly. I expect we'll soon have multiple good options with better fungibility and privacy than bitcoin has now. 12:46 < bsm1175321> http://sx.dyne.org/stealth.html 12:47 < bsm1175321> Adding this to our list of debate topics 13:10 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:18 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:34 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:43 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78-11-193-195.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 -!- gigq [~gigq@45-20-197-26.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:50 -!- gigq [~gigq@45-20-197-26.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:56 < belcher> bip47 is another idea for ECDH "stealth" addresses 13:56 < belcher> the reddit.com/r/joinmarket sidebar has a lot of links to joinmarket thoughts and theory too (and should be a nicer place than r/bitcoin) 13:58 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cnhzipjncmxlnpks] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:08 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:10 -!- jtimon [~quassel@186.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 -!- se3000 [~textual@38.125.163.25] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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Now watch out for enemies in the asteroid field!?] --- Log closed Fri Nov 18 00:00:28 2016