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07:05 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@75.104.65.153] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- ManfredMacx [~ManfredMa@212.15.177.180] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:16 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@75.104.65.153] has quit [] 07:18 < Taek> I thought of a way to make the interactivity requirements not as rough. Basically you let the miner include a bunch of Merkle roots instead of just one Merkle root, and then you leave it to the participants to collaborate to build the Merkle root + key set + inclusion proofs 07:18 < Taek> That way the miner doesn't need to be involved in the process at all 07:18 -!- nicolagreco [sid157154@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wnxpfkedstgbqhrq] has quit [] 07:18 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjqnnhekgknonjfx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:19 -!- nicolagreco [sid157154@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pjwdpkeaddawsjmk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:19 < kanzure> and then there's some minor ordering problems and double spend problems, i think, but they are defeatable 07:21 < bsm117532> kanzure: "i need to check if a pubkey participated in a signature, without having a list of all the pubkeys that made the group signature (or aggregate signature or something)." 07:21 < bsm117532> kanzure: I think one can make an information theoretic proof that this is impossible, based on representing n bits of random data in fewer than n bits. 07:22 < bsm117532> What you can do is use a MMR/Merklix type tree structure and present a proof of presence or absence of any one pubkey, with a log(n) sized proof. 07:23 < kanzure> and include the pubkey inclusion proof in the block data...? 07:24 < bsm117532> "you get a <10 kb block size for almost arbitrarily many transactions." -- there's no magic that allows compressing an infinite amount of information into a finite number of bits. 07:25 < kanzure> you're not compressing information 07:27 < Taek> you actually are compressing information, that's essentially what a hash function does 07:27 < Taek> bsm117532: it's not information theoretically impossible for a few reasons 07:28 < Taek> First, it's probabilistic. We use 32 bytes because the chance of collision is really low. So technically there are an infinite number of collisions out there, but it'd be really freaking impressive if you found one 07:28 < Taek> That's what gets you a lot of the wiggle room 07:28 < Taek> And then second, you encode the rest of the information off-chain 07:29 < kanzure> for pubkeys? 07:29 < bsm117532> So there's an OWAS type aggregation happening somewhere? 07:29 < Taek> the question "did public key X sign blob Y" is much easier to answer in a compressed form than "tell me which public keys signed blob Y" 07:29 < Taek> I was talking about hashes 07:29 < kanzure> might not be OWAS ..... roasbeef/andytoshi suggested an accumulator. 07:29 < Taek> I don't know if there's an equivalent for pubkeys, but I am arguing that it's not impossible 07:30 -!- bassguitarman [uid40024@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-edwdquwxjbedikrd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:30 < bsm117532> It sounds like kanzure wants to test set membership for any of the N pubkeys. While I can present a proof in O(log(N)) with a tree or O(1) with a ZKP, I can't test set membership, without additional data, at any complexity other than O(N). 07:31 < bsm117532> (on information theoretic grounds) 07:31 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 < Taek> the trick is that any single participant only needs proof for a single key 07:32 < Taek> oh, hm 07:32 < kanzure> "Universal accumulators with efficient nonmembership proofs" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/cryptography/accumulators/Universal%20accumulators%20with%20efficient%20nonmembership%20proofs.pdf 07:32 < Taek> kanzure: don't you also need a non-inclusion proof? You need the ability to look at the public key blob and say "... 07:32 < Taek> lol nvm 07:32 < kanzure> yes, you need noninclusion proofs 07:38 -!- jtimon [~quassel@77.224.94.35] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:38 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hljdvudwsfpdpgdq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc13-swan4-2-0-cust361.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc13-swan4-2-0-cust361.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:50 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:52 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:53 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:55 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 < bsm117532> kanzure: That paper looks like it works probabilistically...as the set of accumulated values grows, the probability that one could create a false inclusion proof grows... 08:01 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 -!- _mn3monic [~guido@176.9.68.68] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:29 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:31 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-leeroqkafbzszchg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-krlodiviuodonbpv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:47 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc13-swan4-2-0-cust361.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:47 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc13-swan4-2-0-cust361.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:47 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[~bergealex@qubcpq1531w-lp130-02-65-92-226-222.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37 -!- Nightw0lf [~Nightwolf@hg-nachhaltigkeit.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:37 -!- Nightwolf [~Nightwolf@unaffiliated/nightwolf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004D2B28FF00AC9BCCA14258DFA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:41 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004D2B28FF00F5810B21D07E5938.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:42 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:53 -!- se3000 [~textual@38.125.163.25] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 14:54 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 14:55 -!- bildramer1 is now known as bildramer 14:58 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:58 -!- se3000 [~textual@38.125.163.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:41ba:693:3629:6a65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:07 < kanzure> a large constant size accumulator might be okay...... just increase the time between blocks. 15:16 -!- abpa_ [~abpa@96-82-80-25-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-25-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17 -!- igno_peverell [~igno_pev@gateway/tor-sasl/ignopeverell/x-86067662] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:21 < kanzure> 15:10 i have a list of pubkeys and a signed message (same message signed by everyone) 15:21 < kanzure> 15:10 to check if pubkey N participated, you do a lookup and check the signature 15:21 < kanzure> 15:11 to check if they did not participate, you do a lookup and find no entry in the list 15:21 -!- brg444 [~bergealex@qubcpq1531w-lp130-02-65-92-226-222.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: brg444] 15:21 < kanzure> 15:13 this is merely a way to determine if they are withholding information from you 15:21 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22 -!- JackH_ [~laptop@79-73-185-145.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24 -!- se3000 [~textual@38.125.163.25] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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