--- Log opened Thu Jan 05 00:00:57 2017 00:11 -!- udiWertheimer [~udiWerthe@bzq-84-111-23-225.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 00:13 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sknvalniwtzxvxmv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:20 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvjairmlfvajgnda] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:30 < Taek> adam3us: I think the hard part comes from the fact that the signature usually covers the whole transaction, therefore isn't valid unless you can reconstruct the original (assuming you can't simply request the original owner tore-sign) 00:32 < Taek> Maybe there's some potential if you are more careful about exactly which data is signed 00:33 < Taek> Do you have numbers about how much savings you could get? 00:33 < Taek> er, what percentage of blockspace is typically consumed by cuttable txns 00:34 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:35 < adlai> how does oiRBF accomplish this 00:36 < Taek> you have the original sender just create a new txn with a higher fee 00:36 < adlai> so they have to stay online? 00:36 < Taek> pretty sure 00:36 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:37 < adlai> dunno, they could ask the recipient if they want to send the coins elsewhere, maybe add this to the payment protocol 00:37 < adlai> being online all the time is terrible, unless it's incentivised somehow 00:37 < Taek> not super unreasonable, most of the time if you are connected enough to make a transaction you will have connectivity until the next block 00:38 < Taek> much saner than all the time 00:38 < adlai> and if the original senders are still online, and our miners are altruistic, why not go one further and reorg blocks for really ultimate cut-through? 00:39 < adlai> (; 00:40 < adlai> i mean, "chains of transactions that compete in the same block" are by definition impossible to cut through without cutting some gordian block 00:42 -!- sdfgsdfg [~gfds@c110-23-61-205.rochd5.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51 < Taek> I don't understand what you are getting at, are you sayinf that oirbf wouldn't work for the arbitrary subset of txns where the original sender is still online? You could incentivize it too - less fees means some of what would have been fees can be given to the original sender 00:51 < Taek> (by adjusting the change outputs in the replacement txn) 00:58 < adlai> doesn't the intermediate recipient have to pay the original sender here? sure, the 'payment' can be elided into the cut, just verifying my understanding of what you said 00:59 < Taek> unless the original sender is altruistic, yes 01:00 < adlai> altruistic people turn off their computers to save the planet, mannn 01:02 < Taek> but everyone wins overall b/c total fees paid goes down. (miners lose maybe? But assuming full blocks fee/byte is higher, congestion lower though. overall win I think still) 01:10 < adlai> so evil^H^Hsensible miners will just ignore cut-throughs 01:11 < adlai> btw Taek have you had a chance to read the spectre paper yet? 01:12 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12 * adlai has been procrastinating this, looking for one of those gold-plated round tuitts 01:12 < Taek> potentially. one could argue that supporting cutthrough makes bitcoin as a whole more useful for a fixed blocksize, increasing overall value 01:13 < Taek> I did get to understanding spectre, today actually 01:13 < adlai> one could argue a lot of things, such as "miners should voluntarily reduce the block size, to drive up fees, and then increase the block size gradually enough that users don't realize they can pay lower fees again" 01:13 < Taek> well, the ordering parts at least 01:14 < Taek> that's true I guess we're in vague territory now 01:15 < adlai> you mean the partial ordering of blocks based on 'votes'? 01:15 < stevenroose> A change in Bitcoin's digital signature scheme used for signing transactions (currently ECDSA) could allow for up to two times as many transactions to fit in a block. This gain in efficiency is made possible by switching to Schnorr signatures. Adam Back explained, "We can make the transactions smaller. From the same block size, we can get more transactions if we use this different type of signature." 01:15 < stevenroose> Can anyone explain that? 01:15 < Taek> spectre I think has two weaknesses: 1. runtime for adding a block, 2. tranasction fee structre seems highly abusable 01:16 < adlai> stevenroose: in a nutshell, ecdsa signatures are larger than schnorr, and can't be aggregated. 01:16 < stevenroose> With segwit, the only limiting factor for txs are the outputs, right? Which don't contain the signatures.. 01:17 < adlai> no, inputs are still counted, just separately (assuming you mean the proposed softfork in bitcoin) 01:18 < adlai> they have an accounting which considers them as cheaper than the rest of the block data 01:19 < stevenroose> oh yeah, that's right 01:19 < stevenroose> Strange rule though, especially the arbitrary 1/4th factor 01:20 < stevenroose> its like this, no? block size + witness size / 4 <= max block size 01:20 < adlai> '''frankly my dear, i don't give a damn''' 01:20 < Taek> naively, adding a block to the spectre dag is O(n^2) in the size of the dag. with some engineering-foo O(n) seems attainable but its not clear to me how much complexity is needed to do better than that. O(n) isn't good enough as there are 10 blocks per second 01:21 < adlai> that's the beauty of proposing it as a softfork, luddites such as i can pretend it doesn't exist 01:22 < adlai> "there are 10 blocks per second" << says what line of published, running code? :P 01:22 * adlai thinks spectre would work wonderfully with a block every 42 seconds 01:22 < Taek> well, the paper proposes that block rate 01:22 < adlai> or maybe 23, that's a speshler numbler 01:23 < adlai> sure, it's just a paper. back in the 21st c, people used paper for all sorts of strange 01:23 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@178.187.45.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:23 < Taek> if you are doing blocks slower than network propagation speed, a huge number of problems evaporate. But confirmation times also go up a lot 01:25 < adlai> ideally, you do blocks small enough that the entire thing can be softforked into bitcoin 01:25 < adlai> otherwise it's all masturbation 01:25 < adlai> (not that there's anything sinful about that) 01:26 < Taek> can you soft-fork in a reduced b;pck time? 01:26 < Taek> *block 01:27 < adam3us> adlai Taek it's more of a payment processor / exchange use case. they have a hot wallet and are having withdrawals or payments in a stream to users. they could use a nagle algo (flush transaction at say 10 outputs or 30seconds. it should asymptotically halve their on-chain use. it might theoretically reduce fungibility a little bit as what goes on chain looks like c1->A,B,C,D,E-c5 instead of c1->A,c2; c2->B,c3; c3->C,c4; c4->D,c5 01:27 < adlai> adam3us: don't payment processors and exchanges already /practically/ reduce fungibility, a lottle bit? 01:28 < adlai> i don't think they'd care about some theoretical further reduction. the fee savings would speak to their hearts. 01:28 < Taek> adam3us: oirbf seems like the simplest, most complete way to accomplish that then 01:29 < adam3us> adlia well there's on chain fungibility visible to everyone and that'd go down a bit because there is some ambiguity between c1->A,c2; c2->B,c3 whether B was made by user controlling c2 or c2 was the exchange paying another user. 01:29 < adlai> Taek: sf-aware miners exchange beads at the beadrate, blocks contain as many beads as possible. txs are sf-valid if they're in a bead-in-a-block, and bitcoin-valid once a block has enough empty space to quote the beaded txs so that old clients can see them 01:30 < adam3us> Taek it's maybe not super simple because they'd be sending a stream: end c1->A,c2; then send c1->A,B,c3 then c1->A,B,C,c4 then c1->A,B,C,D,c5 etc and let the bitcoind opt-in RBF logic sort it out. That avoids introducing delay. The logic does have to monitor for which one makes it into a block and pickup where that leaves off. Eg when c1->A,B,C,c4 makes it into a block discard state c1->A,B,C,D,c5 and pickup from c4->D,c5; c5->E,c6 etc. 01:30 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:30 < adam3us> so bitcoind might be well placed to implement a sendnagle because it's anyway monitoring blocks. but a higher level library might struggle with that a bit 01:31 < kanzure> i guess some bitcoind infrastructure to do opt-in RBF planning might be a friendly thing to implemet 01:31 < kanzure> .. implement. 01:31 < adlai> processors should be running bitcoind, and their in-house libraries should just use whatever's the most efficient interface 01:31 < adam3us> re tear-off sigs, I would think maybe with MAST-like model you could sign different things, and you or miners decide after the fact which to reveal. however the problem here is you by definition dont know you're about to send B, or you'd send c1->A,B,c3 directly in the first place. 01:32 < kanzure> adlai: unfortunately you might have to lower your expectations about what other people are likely to implement ;) 01:32 * adlai is not about short-term Bitcoin development 01:32 < adlai> *talking about 01:32 * kanzure vanishes 01:33 < adlai> expecto piscopum! 01:34 < adlai> hm, maybe that one isn't valid yet 01:37 < adlai> in case it's not clear, SFing a blockdag doesn't increase throughput, it aligns miner incentive 01:37 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.216.139] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:37 < Taek> hmm. maybe a soft fork is possible. Inclusive protocols make that super annoying. 01:37 < adlai> people who want higher throughput can use other layers or chains 01:38 < Taek> or you just add boosters via other data pieces a la segit 01:38 * adlai would bet a coin that it'll be an alt before a softfork... not sure about segwit, that's probably a riskier bet 01:39 < adlai> (do any alts seg wits yet!?) 01:39 < adlai> (that's right, i'll pay you an entire bitcoin to write and deploy the softfork. someday you'll regret not making me eat this hat!) 01:41 < Taek> I am planning on launching a jute alt before migrating it to btc/sia regardless 01:41 < Taek> at least tentatively 01:42 < adlai> what's the latest draft/paper on jute? 01:44 -!- Alanius_ is now known as Alanius 01:49 < adlai> oh lawl, i asked for fiat when there's code already 01:51 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:01 < Taek> jute has made a lot of progress, hoping to have a paper published soon 02:05 -!- ManfredMacx [~ManfredMa@212.15.176.8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:14 < adam3us> ltc is apparently working on segwit 02:17 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:24 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.216.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:27 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.216.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 < adlai> adam3us: good to know, any idea what kind of fork they plan? 02:35 < adam3us> soft but not using bip9 because they thought it interacted with merge mining. 02:35 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@103.5.140.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@103.5.140.172] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:40 -!- kenshi84_ [~kenshi84@103.5.140.172] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:41 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@103.5.140.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:47 -!- kenshi84_ [~kenshi84@103.5.140.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@103.5.140.172] has 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joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:25 -!- Uglux [~uglux@unaffiliated/uglux] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:28 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:32 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@21.227.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 07:33 -!- kinlo [~peter@unaffiliated/kinlo] has quit [Quit: !] 07:38 -!- kinlo [~peter@unaffiliated/kinlo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 -!- tbolt [7135e44e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.113.53.228.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:45 < kanzure> https://github.com/ignopeverell/grin/blob/master/doc/chainsync.md 07:46 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- roidster [~chatzilla@47-41-33-247.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 < tbolt> Respectonomy: A Decentralized Social Network. 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