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05:33 < easybtc> https://earnfreebitcoins.net/?ref=159138 - 2000 satoshi every 10 minutes for free!
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08:12 < ananteris> FREE MONEY!? please tell me more
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09:16 < deadalnix> Hi all. Is there a concrete proposal for Schnorr ta this stage ? A BIP or something ?
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09:24 < andytosh1> deadalnix: no. pieter, greg and i have a paper submitted to the bitcoin workshop at Financial Crypto 2017 that explores the pitfalls in this space and that will serve as design motivation
09:25 < deadalnix> andytosh1, is there a draft somewhere or that's confidential in the meantime ?
09:26 < deadalnix> the part I'm the most interested in is sig aggregation and what are the plans here
09:29 < six__> Hello, i'm wondering what might cause a node to not have any outbound connections. 90 inbound but no outbound over the last 24hrs or so. Normally I see a fairly even spread between in/out.
09:32 < kanzure> six__: wrong channel
09:32 < adam3us> deadalnix schnorr aggregation and security proofs of method is part of that paper.
09:33 < adam3us> sipa described it at his presentation at scaling bitcoin milan
09:33 < six__> My bad ,  thanks kanzure
09:34 < adam3us> deadalnix https://scalingbitcoin.org/transcript/milan2016/schnorr-signatures
09:36 < deadalnix> adam3us, it cover multisig, but doesn't cover agregation accross inputs, or did I miss something ?
09:36 < adam3us> the way it works is you have to delinearlize the combination of public keys to avoid adaptive malicious selection of public key to cancel others and avoid generalised birthday attack.  so eg h=H(A||B||C), Q=H(h||A)*A+H(h||B)*B+H(h||C)*C and then the sig is made with Q as the pub key
09:36 < adam3us> he might have run out of time to go into that detail ^
09:37 < adam3us> above ensures that each pubkey affects the delinearisation so adaptive selection of pubkeys is prevented.
09:38 < adam3us> the most obvious adaptive selection is multisig A,B,C where C=-B allowing A to steal the funds solo... or the whole class of related things so you cant screen for them.
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09:41 < deadalnix> In that scenario, the signed message is always the same. Is that possible to aggregate with different message ? There are some claims that one could tdo tx wide aggregation, which would require to aggregate signature with different messages.
09:41 < zmanian_> As far as I know, you need pairing based signatures to aggregate sigs under different messages
09:42 < zmanian_> I didn't think of committing to full set of keys in the PubKey, nice!
09:42 < zmanian_> That's a really elegant construction
09:43 < deadalnix> zmanian_, so somethign like bls
09:44 < deadalnix> in there ( https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/schnorr-signatures/ ), quoting "This is something that Greg Maxwell came up with-- we can do aggregation over all signatures in a single transaction because this is the case where you're trying to protect against a situation where you don't know what's all the signers are in advance."
09:45 < deadalnix> so that's inacurate ?
09:45 < adam3us> you can use it across inputs, or across coinjoin.  i suppose the message m signed could include serialisation of different messages
09:47 < deadalnix> You'd have to ditch BIP143
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10:01 < adam3us> dont think it relates to segwit, that's just about whether the txid = H( sig, tx ) vs txid = H( pubkey, tx )
10:01 < adam3us> this is just another sig format.
10:02 < adam3us> that construction i typed above doesnt allow for not yet selected signers.  i think sipa thinks it's not necessary because in order to sign in bitcoin there must be a commitment to the pub key (a p2sh address etc) already in the blockchain, so the signers have to be decided before the signature.
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10:03 < adam3us> but if you wanted to decide signers on the fly i think you can, my version of the construction was Q=H(A)*A+H(A||B)*B+H(A||B||C)*C
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10:17 < deadalnix> adam3us, so that's possible to aggregate signature of different input with that scheme, because the message to sign will be different.
10:18 < adam3us> ah maybe miscommunicating.  the aggregated public key Q is either h=H(A||B||C), Q=H(h||A)*A+H(h||B)*B+H(h||C)*C or Q=H(A)*A+H(A||B)*B+H(A||B||C)*C
10:18 < adam3us> but the signature is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=511074.msg5727641#msg5727641
10:19 < adam3us> R=kG, [r=R.x, s=k+H(r,m)d],    Q=dG verify: sG=?R+H(r,m)Q
10:19 < adam3us> and i give on there the example of the 2 of 2 case.
10:20 < adam3us> so that second hash is the normal message signing hash.  if one wanted to sign multiple different messages with parts of it, eg you'd have c=H(r,m1,m2,m3) or c=H(r,m) where m is a merkle tree of messages or whatever.
10:21 < adam3us> the hashes in the pub key expansion are just delinearisation of the combined pub key.  doing what I described in the bitcointalk post (Q=A+B) is vulnerable to adaptive pub key selection.
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10:29 < adam3us> there's something implemented in libsecp256k1, if you want to check it out.
10:31 < adam3us> deadalnix ^^
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10:37 < deadalnix> adam3us, thanks, yes that's what I was looking for.
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14:46 < kanzure> @adam3us, for coinbase txout hashcash one of the major problems is that as soon as you go "offline" you can't mine any more updates to your payment (e.g. if someone wants to spend their coin, the only way to do it is if you're online and you update the tx). so how about this: make a network of peers where you voluntarily mine other people's transactions in your weak PoW blocks, and then use ...
14:46 < kanzure> ...a set of peers big enough or diverse enough that some of them are always online. in exchange, you do the same for when they are offline. this is also verifiable.
14:46 < kanzure> er, that was supposed to be in slack
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14:48 < kanzure> all of these transactions are exclusively coinbase subsidy outputs (there could be other transactions in the block but that's irrelevant)
14:49 < PsychoticBoy> zag het zojuist
14:51 < kanzure> also, there would be a small backlog of transactions that you would send to peers once they come back online- to show them that some of their payments were re-spent by their rightful owners- simply to show an actual chain of transfer (as a miner, you are incentivized to do this because otherwise your peers will stop mining t[hings in your favor when you are offline) (if you don't show a set ...
14:51 < kanzure> ...of transactions showing the transfer, then for all you know, the other miners perverted your coinbase txout while you were offline)
14:53 < kanzure> the expected value of a continuously mined weak PoW for some coinbas txout is a known quantity--- giving 100% of the subsidy as a transaction output can be calculated as somewhat-non-zero valuable, even if the PoW is hugely weak.  the trick to figure out, though, is whether there is any value to weak PoW miners *stopping* further mining activity of some coinbase txout--- it's like receiving ...
14:53 < kanzure> ...a lottery ticket that you know is already bad :).
14:54 < kanzure> i guess there's no way to differentiate between slow mining and stopped mining, you just have to set a maximum time window threshold between blocks, and cessation of mining is the same as cessation of payment...?
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15:15 < kanzure> i guess that's mostly a sharechain, with 'spendable' shares
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19:00 < aseriousgogetta> !balance
19:00 < gribble> (balance <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "calc [web fetch http://blockchain.info/q/addressbalance/$1]/100000000".
19:01 < aseriousgogetta> !balance aseriousgogetta
19:01 < gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
19:01 < aseriousgogetta> wtf
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19:30 < molz> aseriousgogetta, wrong channel
19:33 < aseriousgogetta> yeah, realized it after a moment. ;)
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