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What (if anything) would be wrong with incorporating the root of the timestamp tree into the block header? (Making the bitcoin node be the "calendar server" equivalent of petertodd's software) 07:21 < bsm117532> This also presents the possibility that adding timestamps could be paid for with tx fees. 07:22 < sipa> that burdens every node with more header data, including those who do not care about timestamps 07:22 < bsm117532> There's really no good reason to have multiple people competing for block space with different calendar servers and different OP_RETURN transactions. 07:22 < sipa> absolutely 07:22 < sipa> thankfully, you only need one 07:22 < bsm117532> sipa but it's more economical to have only one root hash than a bunch of OP_RETURNS. 07:22 < sipa> false dichotomy 07:23 < sipa> you can have a single OP_RETURN with the same functionary as putting it in the header 07:23 < sipa> to have a single header root requires coordination between the multiple timestamp services 07:23 < bsm117532> Well then I'd assert that all users would want timestamps, including light clients, and therefore need the timestamp root hash in any case. 07:24 < sipa> that seems crazy 07:24 < bsm117532> Hahaaaa 07:24 < sipa> by incorporating it into the same tree as transactions, you minimize the upfront costs for everyone 07:24 < sipa> in exchange for a logsize growth of the proof size 07:25 < bsm117532> Holding a Merkle proof for the timestamp txn, in addition to block headers is a larger burden on headers-only clients than having a single hash in the block header. 07:26 < bsm117532> Regarding coordination: that's exactly why I'm suggesting to move the functionality into the coind itself. 07:26 < sipa> i really don't understand why you think these are related issues 07:26 < sipa> you need coordination to combine multiple commitments into one 07:27 < bsm117532> I'm confused. Which two things do you think are unrelated? 07:27 < sipa> that applies both to having it in the header or in an OP_RETURN or in a dummy coinbase output or in short-last-branch output 07:28 < sipa> if you're able to build the infrastructure for coordination, you can just as well do it for an OP_RETURN 07:28 < sipa> so the question is just about the proof costs 07:28 < sipa> not coordination 07:28 < sipa> and by putting it into the header you get an O(1) size increase for every node, for every block 07:28 <@kanzure> bsm117532: i think the more interesting aspect of the calendar server concept is that, it could be applied to transactions (clients must hold the data to prove their transaction happened) 07:28 <@kanzure> this relieves the pressure on the blockchain to contain irrelevant data 07:28 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o kanzure] by kanzure 07:28 < sipa> by using an output, you get a O(log n) size increase per individual proof, for the single party interested in the timestamped data 07:29 < sipa> i think it's ridiculous to think the O(1) for everyone is ever a better deal 07:29 < kanzure> sipa, i think bsm117532 is trying to argue that consensus among bitcoin node operators and miners is probably easier than consensus among OP_RETURN users or something for "which OP_RETURN gets to be the single OP_RETURN". 07:29 < bsm117532> Conversely I think it's ridiculous to think a financial system can be useful without timestamps! :-P 07:29 < sipa> bsm117532: i agree 07:29 < sipa> but we already have timestamps 07:29 -!- Uglux [~uglux@unaffiliated/uglux] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29 < sipa> and they're using logspace merkle proofs! 07:30 < sipa> kanzure: that's fair... you can argue about systems for coordinating commitments into one, or not 07:30 < sipa> kanzure: but that discussion is orthogonal to having it in headers or in the existing merkle tree 07:30 < bsm117532> But you need two log(n) proofs: one to the txn containing the OP_RETURN, and another to the data that was merkled into the OP_RETURN. I'm replacing one log(n) with O(1) which is smaller for everyone, assuming everyone needs timestamps. 07:31 < sipa> not everyone needs everyone's timestamps 07:32 < bsm117532> Everyone needs the root of a potential timestamp that someone might feed them a log(n) proof for. If they didn't have it, they'd have to make another query for another log(n) proof. 07:32 < sipa> same argument: why don't we just store all transactions in the header directly? everyone needs transactions! 07:32 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 07:33 < bsm117532> Hrmph. I thought that was a perfectly friendly discussion... 07:33 < kanzure> "why don't we just store all transactions in the header directly? everyone needs transactions" well, in the sense of validity, you must transfer all the transactions with the header anyway, so... 07:33 < kanzure> (or otherwise provide the data) 07:34 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 < bsm117532> I guess his argument would be that not everyone needs *all* timestamp roots. They just need the ones they're interested in. So k*log(n) if they're interested in k of them, as opposed to height*O(1). 07:34 < sipa> say there is a need for A transactions in every block, and B timestamps in every block 07:35 < sipa> by combining them into one tree, you have O(blocks) cost for everyone, plus O(log(A+B)) per party interested in a commitment 07:36 < sipa> by building two separate trees, you have O(2*blocks) cost for everyone, plus O(log(B)) per party interested in a commitment 07:36 < kanzure> " An Explanation of Nakamoto's Analysis of Double-spend Attacks" https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.03977v1 07:37 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 < sipa> by cascading the trees, you have O(blocks) cost for everyone, plus O(log(A)+log(B)) per party interested in a commitment 07:37 < bsm117532> Well...we do need commitments to many things. These could be collapsed for light clients so that the header was only a nonce+(commitment hash) where they can retrieve the contents of the commitment hash if they're interested in txns, or timestamps in that block. But, this still a O(n) algorithm for light clients when we need to be moving to a O(log(n)) algorithm for light clients. 07:38 < sipa> i agree there may be many things to commit to 07:39 < sipa> but my view is that the only important classification is whether it's data needed for full validation or not 07:39 < sipa> as every full node will always need a fully expanded tree for those things, so they should be prioritized 07:39 < sipa> i really don't think any lightweight client cares whether they need 500 bytes for a commitment proof or 1000 bytes for a commitment proof 07:39 < sipa> when they already need 30 MB worth of headers 07:39 < bsm117532> But, all data is needed for full validation, no? 07:40 < sipa> your timestamps are not 07:40 < sipa> bitcoin transactions are 07:40 < sipa> the witness root is 07:40 < sipa> merged mining commitments are not 07:40 < sipa> a fee sumtree may be 07:40 < sipa> a utxo tree commitment may be 07:41 < sipa> to be clear: of course you need whatever entry is the commitment data for full validation, or the headers would not be verifiable against the tree 07:41 < sipa> but a full node does not need to know what your timestamps commits to 07:41 < bsm117532> Well there is proofs-of-proofs-of-work and amiller's improvements, which could bring light clients to log(height) complexity. 07:41 < sipa> it does need to know the transactions that the merkle tree commitment too 07:42 < sipa> that's true... but still 07:42 < sipa> do you really care that a timestamp proof is 500 bytes large? 07:42 < sipa> *larger 07:42 < bsm117532> So then sipa, let's say there were a bunch of new commitments: TXO, UTXO, STXO, timetamp Merkle, etc. Where would you put them all? 07:43 -!- Uglux [~uglux@unaffiliated/uglux] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:43 < sipa> if i could hardfork bitcoin, i'd put them directly under the merkle root 07:43 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:6c70:4915:bb6:132d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 < bsm117532> sipa: Not really. 07:43 < bsm117532> especially since it's off-chain data. 07:43 < sipa> bsm117532: exactly 07:44 < sipa> so just coordinate with a number of parties, and put them in an op_return or a coinbase output 07:45 < bsm117532> The big difference is that a timestamp Merkle root has no consensus meaning. Some of those other commitments could... 07:45 < sipa> i'd say there should be a top merkle tree, whose leaves are TxRoot, WitnessRoot, UTXOCommitment, TimeStampMerkle, ... 07:45 < sipa> in fact, s/TimeStampMerkle/EverythingNotConsensusCritical/ 07:45 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iiztmqfsxeuizkkv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 < bsm117532> However it would be nice if there was a somewhat organized way to put EverythingNotConsensusCritical in without (a) competition for block space or (b) ad-hoc mechanisms like OP_RETURN 07:46 < sipa> i think that's purely psychological 07:46 < bsm117532> It certainly is. 07:47 < bsm117532> It's "code smell". 07:47 < sipa> we could just as easily agree to just have a single OP_RETURN for everything as having dedicates place for it in the header/tree structure 07:47 < bsm117532> That would be equivalent, if slightly ad-hoc. 07:47 < sipa> i also think in practice, these things don't really matter 07:47 < sipa> proof costs are easily dominated by the size of the tx tree branch now 07:48 < sipa> maybe at some point in the future that changes 07:54 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:54 < bsm117532> I guess a calendar server could take BTC payments for adding timestamp data too...Letting the miner extract that fee adds a pretty big transaction burden that could be relayed over e.g. Lightning instead. 07:55 < bsm117532> Though the calendar server could easily take your fee and omit your timestamp. :-/ 07:56 < sipa> if the calendar server is a miner, it could provide a frequent stream of weak PoW that contains your timestamp committed to 07:56 < bsm117532> That's an interesting idea... 07:56 < sipa> while that's still cheatable, it would mean the miner needs to waste money in order to provide those proofs 07:57 < sipa> unfortunately, it pretty much only works when miners have known identities 07:57 < sipa> and aren't too spread out 07:59 < bsm117532> sipa: The miner wouldn't have to waste money...he could just show you a block header (containing your timestamp) + merkle proof with weak PoW. He could later omit your timestamp, but you know he did actively mine a root hash containing your timestamp. This doesn't cost the miner anything but bandwidth... 07:59 < sipa> bsm117532: i mean, if a miner would intentionally want to not produce a block that contains your proof 07:59 < sipa> it costs him nothing to include it 07:59 < bsm117532> Ah yes I see. 07:59 < sipa> but if he needs to produce PoW with it, but not actually produce a block, he's wasting money 08:00 < bsm117532> It's merge mined though...it's his usual mining process, just with insufficient PoW to be an actual block. That doesn't cost anything. 08:01 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01 < sipa> he doesn't know ahead of time that the hash will be insufficiently low 08:02 < sipa> the only strategy that leads to him creating weak pow that includes your timestamp, but does not lead to full PoW that does include it, is by dropping full PoW satsfiying hashes on the floor 08:02 < sipa> that costs money 08:02 < bsm117532> I mean, if the miner sets his target at 600*target (as you'd do with pool mining), he can produce a weak-PoW proof that contains different timestamp data every second. 08:03 < sipa> that's why you should demand a constant stream of PoW 08:03 < sipa> not just once 08:03 < bsm117532> I think you need a *not* in that sentence 5 lines up 08:03 < sipa> which sentence? 08:03 < bsm117532> err... 08:03 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:03 < bsm117532> nevermind 08:03 < bsm117532> Parse error 08:04 < bsm117532> Yes, correct, I agree. 08:05 < bsm117532> One could go a step further and aggregate these weak PoW hashes to get better time resolution if desired... 08:09 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@47.185.237.246] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:15 < bsm117532> petertodd: Do I have a correct understanding of your calendar servers? They aggregate once per second and provide proofs. But there's nothing stopping them from dropping your timestamp later, no? What do you think of this idea of combining it with (weak-) mining? 08:17 < gmaxwell> the mining doesn't provide any evidence that the timpstamp won't be dropped either, and because it won't end up in the history it is cheaply forged. 08:21 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: For that one would need a proof that the stream of weak-PoW headers were strictly append-only. In principle this could be done by keeping the entire stream and committing to that in the block too. (Hey commitments to commitments! It's turtles all the way down.) 08:28 < instagibbs> non-consensus weak block DAGs... nearing buzzword bingo 08:33 < bsm117532> Yeah it would have to be a DAG/braid to get timestamps that fast...not sure how. 08:38 -!- Davasny_ [~quassel@78.10.231.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-25-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 09:01 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:04 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004D2B28FF0075890358CBF06CF3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004D2B28FF00F0304CF43923D2EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:24 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31 -!- s4z [~s4z@unaffiliated/s4z] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:32 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 09:36 -!- Fibonacci is now known as FibonacciCoin 09:37 -!- AnHry [~x@a94-132-78-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:37 -!- s4z [~s4z@unaffiliated/s4z] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38 -!- FibonacciCoin is now known as Fibonacci 09:39 < sn0wmonster> Q: i have been doing some work in bitmessage lately, a system that uses the "send-everything-to-everyone" information theoretic privacy model, and uses PoW to fight spam (e.g. hashcash), 09:40 < sn0wmonster> is it doomed to end up like bitcoin that only GPUs can use it? 09:40 < sn0wmonster> (by "use" i mean "hash", sorry) 09:41 < sipa> PoW only works when you can accurately measure the cost of it 09:41 < sipa> bitcoin can do this by incentiving PoW, and having a blockchain which brings all PoW into scooe for everyone 09:41 < sipa> i don't see how bitmessage can do it 09:42 < sipa> except by manually adjusting the amount of PoW needed from time to time 09:42 -!- AlineGomes [uid198215@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qbghmodnqyxmxuru] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:42 < sn0wmonster> i think that's how it is done at the moment, a custom multiplier in the options 09:43 < sn0wmonster> so that means that if spammers spend $100 to send enough spam on the network to the point others need to up their PoW, it could theoretically get to a point that individual users would need to spend $100 just to have their messages sent in other words? 09:45 < c0rw1n_> wouldn't it mean that all users collectively would have to spend $100? ( i might be being an idiot ) 09:46 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 -!- s4z [~s4z@unaffiliated/s4z] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:13 < sn0wmonster> you might be right 10:14 < sn0wmonster> actually no wait, because the PoW for one person sending their own message would be what matters 10:14 < sn0wmonster> since PoW is not required to read it 10:15 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 10:16 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:20 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21 -!- isle2983 [~isle@162.216.46.102] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:24 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32 -!- isle2983 [~isle@162.216.46.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:35 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39 -!- s4z [~s4z@unaffiliated/s4z] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 10:48 -!- isle2983 [~isle@162.216.46.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:51 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:54 -!- s4z [~s4z@unaffiliated/s4z] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- isle2983 [~isle@162.216.46.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:00 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:03 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- s4z [~s4z@unaffiliated/s4z] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09 -!- isle2983 [~isle2983@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/isle2983] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- uiuc-slack2 [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:13 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 11:13 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:14 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:27 -!- isle2983 [~isle2983@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/isle2983] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:31 -!- isle2983 [~isle2983@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/isle2983] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:32 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- sausage_factory [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:39 -!- dnaleor is now known as everyone_ 11:39 -!- everyone_ is now known as dnaleor 11:51 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79.98.72.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79.98.72.176] has quit [Changing host] 11:52 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:59 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:15 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:27 -!- celsosouza [~textual@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- mmeijeri [3efb099d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.251.9.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:34 < mmeijeri> @bluematt: is the 496 on line 136 a typo for 4096? 12:36 < BlueMatt> 8*496*1024 12:36 < BlueMatt> 4063232 12:36 < BlueMatt> looks like i just divided out 4MB 12:36 < BlueMatt> so, no, dont think so 12:37 < BlueMatt> (technically I belive it needs doubling for segwit, though) 12:38 -!- Sosumi [~Leon@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:38 < BlueMatt> nothing can be larger than 2x blocksize in tx data (I belive, based on the packing algorithm at https://github.com/bitcoinfibre/bitcoinfibre/blob/beta-0.14/src/blockencodings.cpp#L222 12:38 < BlueMatt> ofc with segwit its more complicated because to meet that you'd have to have all txn be FEC_CHUNK_SIZE / 2 + 1 in size, roughly 12:38 < BlueMatt> and so you'd not really quite get 8MB max 12:38 < BlueMatt> but...whatever 12:40 < BlueMatt> speaking of which...if someone is bored, optimal (and fast) packing of transactions into fec chunks is an interesting problem 12:40 < BlueMatt> current algorithm roughly juts plops transactions into place starting on chunk boundaries and fills any remaining space in the last chunk of said tx with any transactions which would not cross a chunk boundary 12:42 < BlueMatt> but there are more clever things to do to try to optimize to not create too much empty space, while still avoiding a transaction being missed from causing the fec to need to recover any more chunks than neccessary 12:43 < BlueMatt> the current one seems to work reasonably, but if someone finds themselves bored on a rainy sunday afternoon...... 12:45 < mmeijeri> ok, good 12:46 < mmeijeri> I've been reading the code today and I wondered why you have four nested loops looping over node x chunk x node x chunk 12:46 < Fibonacci> https://goo.gl/images/oqFBYn 12:46 < mmeijeri> although the inner two loops only seem to get called with a chunk count of 1 12:47 < mmeijeri> also, I see a handcoded bitvector, but elsewhere in the code you use vector 12:47 < mmeijeri> are you still refactoring this? 12:47 < kanzure> Fibonacci: please move along to #bitcoin instead of -wizards 12:48 < mmeijeri> nice work on the tx packing, again more sophisticated than I had anticipated 12:49 < Fibonacci> kanzure: why's that 12:49 < kanzure> Fibonacci: ask them. please leave. 12:52 < Fibonacci> Do you run this channel kanzure 12:52 < kanzure> yes, now get out 12:52 < Fibonacci> Without a reason. .. 12:52 < kanzure> after yesterday? and today? please, just leave. 12:53 < Fibonacci> Because i recommended a Fibonacci fork on an alt coin? 12:54 -!- AnHry [~x@a94-132-78-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:54 -!- AnHry [~x@a94-132-78-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:54 -!- AnHry [~x@a94-132-78-87.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54 < xissburg> you guys are crazy 12:55 -!- sn0wmonster [~yeti@taskhive/developer/sn0wmonster] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56 -!- celsosouza [~textual@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 12:56 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o sipa] by ChanServ 12:57 < Fibonacci> kanzure: sorry if i offended you but im not sure what i said or did 12:58 < Fibonacci> I only remember posting a suggestion here. Was it something i wrote on a different channel? 12:58 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 < mmeijeri> this channel isn't for general bitcoin discussion, it's for highly technical discussion of algorithms and data structures 12:59 < Fibonacci> Golden ratio isn't high tech enough? 13:00 < bsm117532> No. Now GTFO 13:00 < Fibonacci> It's also algorithmic and data structure related 13:02 <@sipa> fibonacci is awesome, but please follow the discussions a bit here first 13:03 < Fibonacci> Sorry if i offended anyone 13:03 -!- Fibonacci [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dyaizdzdwovzxtid] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 13:03 < kanzure> wtf? offense..? 13:11 -!- sn0wmonster [~yeti@taskhive/developer/sn0wmonster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:13 -!- dkings [~dkings@81.193.44.230] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:27 -!- JHistone [~JHistone@cpc102320-sgyl38-2-0-cust380.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:41 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:45 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:07 -!- q4 [~q4@user-94-254-171-56.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:09 < kanzure> .title https://lists.launchpad.net/mimblewimble/msg00022.html 14:09 < yoleaux> Hash preimages, ZKCPs, atomic swaps and HTLC's : Mailing list archive : mimblewimble team in Launchpad 14:12 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 14:14 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:16 < bsm117532> "Hash-locktimed transactions" is an implementation of 2-party fair exchange, using timelocks, FWIW. 14:17 < bsm117532> 2-party fair exchange is a very fundamental and important primitive. The original Bitcoin only solved the problem of 1-way sends (resolving double-spends). The only way I know of to atomically swap data is using timelocks like this. (Unfortunately, I'd love to find another way) 14:18 -!- GoldenAngle [~JoBo@unaffiliated/goldenangle] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18 < GoldenAngle> It's fibonacci but I'm just here to listen. 14:29 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 14:30 -!- Davasny_ is now known as Davasny 14:39 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:43 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:45 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:48 < BlueMatt> mmeijeri: i recall there being some reason for it 14:48 < BlueMatt> (re: the vector vs handcoded bitvector) 14:49 < BlueMatt> oh, probably didnt want to have the indirection of dynamically allocated memory there 14:49 < BlueMatt> which can be shit for performance 14:49 < BlueMatt> or, at least, annoying 14:49 < BlueMatt> there are sprinkles of random super-optimization and sprinkles of "wow, this could be made faster" all over the place ;P 14:51 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78.10.231.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53 < BlueMatt> mmeijeri: where is said loop? 14:55 < BlueMatt> I've never done an actual audit of O-complexity of the fire codebase, so there may be dragons hiding 14:55 < BlueMatt> but I hope they're all in places where its not perf-critical 14:55 < BlueMatt> well, that and you normally only have like 5 or 10 peers 14:56 < mmeijeri> C++ had std::bitset for fixed size bit vectors 14:56 < BlueMatt> oh, thats nice, didnt know that 14:56 < mmeijeri> I looked it up yesterday, I thought there had to be a std solution for it 14:57 < BlueMatt> PR's accepted :p 15:00 -!- Fibonacci [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dyaizdzdwovzxtid] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 < mmeijeri> lol 15:03 < BlueMatt> what i really need to do is fix my stats script to handle the fact that my hk <-> eu link is broken 15:03 < BlueMatt> so i can generate the stats pages again 15:08 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10 -!- pinheadmz [44fb8f08@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.251.143.8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:10 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12 -!- pinheadmz [44fb8f08@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.251.143.8] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:26 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:35 -!- q4 [~q4@user-94-254-171-56.play-internet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:42 -!- JHistone [~JHistone@cpc102320-sgyl38-2-0-cust380.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:51 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00 -!- Yogh [~Yogh@f36186.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01 < gmaxwell> OT] this not-bitcoin-related mystery hunt puzzle from this year might be fun for some people here: http://solutions.monsters-et-manus.com/hunt/puzzle/great_tits.html (mystery hunt solutions are words or short phrases, almost always all alphabetic. The solution link there is a total spoiler that gives not just the answer but how it was found; the puzzle is moderately hard so if you're going to tr 16:01 < gmaxwell> y don't give up easily and just hit solution) 16:02 < gmaxwell> (well not very hard by mystery hunt standards, or I wouldn't bother linking it here)) 16:03 -!- Yogh [~Yogh@f36186.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- thepumpernickle1 [~duphass@64-121-10-106.c3-0.rdl-ubr2.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07 -!- thepumpernickle1 [~duphass@64-121-10-106.c3-0.rdl-ubr2.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:23 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:27 < nsh> IT[OT]T: gmaxwell calls me thick obliquely 16:27 < nsh> <3 16:34 < Fibonacci> Gotta find the item then huh 16:39 -!- dkings [~dkings@81.193.44.230] has quit [] 16:41 < Fibonacci> http://frass.woodcoin.org/the-saga-of-the-lukeaudi-fibonacci-relation/ A method to inflate and deflate at smaller increments that still maintain a golden ratio relationship can be gleamed from these chicken scratchings 16:41 < Fibonacci> Or gleaned 16:43 < Fibonacci> Sorry i heard this was where the true brilliant minds are to tear down my ideas and i just cant resist. 16:44 < kanzure> it's not; please leave. 16:46 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.6] 16:46 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:50 -!- forrestv [forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:55 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:59 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-25-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:06 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13 < Fibonacci> Your personality is about as charming as your face. Ive done nothing offensive until now. Go ahead and kick me. 17:13 -!- GoldenAngle [~JoBo@unaffiliated/goldenangle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:21 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-55-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22 -!- stench [~stench@185.86.151.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23 -!- stench [~stench@176.223.111.92] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24 -!- pero [~pero@unaffiliated/pero] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:27 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-biqbxepyceufmjcf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:27 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: forrestv, iddo, Noldorin, pro, BashCo 17:28 -!- JHistone [~JHistone@cpc102320-sgyl38-2-0-cust380.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:29 -!- Netsplit over, joins: forrestv, Noldorin, BashCo, pro, iddo 17:29 < mmeijeri> @bluematt: where did you get this version of wirehair? it appears to be newer than the one I'm seeing in the wirehair repo 17:29 < BlueMatt> mmeijeri: you're looking for wh256 17:30 < mmeijeri> ah, those are not the same thing? 17:30 < BlueMatt> wh256 is, indeed, a newer version, with some new features 17:31 < mmeijeri> cool 17:33 < mmeijeri> this catid guy has a lot of cool stuff in his repos 17:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:387b:5daf:5613:9d5f] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:34 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:51 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 21:56 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:59 <@sipa> FibonacciCoin: you're not being offensive, you're just off topic 22:00 <@sipa> but please cooperate 22:12 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:19 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:21 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:30 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:33 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:35 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:45 -!- jtimon 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