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14:56 < frib> how scalable is mimble wimble in terms of transactions / day?
14:57 < bsm1175321> Mimblewimble doesn't really add scalability enhancements. It's a fungibility enhancement.
14:57 < frib> i thought it "hit two birds with one stone" ?
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15:32 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: that isn't correct.
15:32 < gmaxwell> MW eliminates the need for any node to store most historical data, and eliminates the need to transfer it in syncing.
15:33 < bsm1175321> Good point.
15:34 < sipa> bsm1175321: its fungibility/privacy is similar (and perhaps a bit better due to simpler coinjojn) than CT
15:34 < sipa> and conpared to CT, it is a massive scaling improvement
15:35 < sipa> compared to bitcoin as it exists today, it's also a scalability improvement in asymptotics, but with a terrible constant factor
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15:36 < bsm1175321> Yes...I've explained Monero/RingCT to a few people this week...(they use CT).  The scalability implications are scary.  10x worse AFAICT.  MW is better.
15:36 < gmaxwell> ...
15:36 < gmaxwell> Monero's scalability problems have nothing to do with CT.
15:36 < bsm1175321> Monero tx sizes are 10x larger now, because of the range proofs, no?
15:37 < gmaxwell> MW is a massive scalablity improvement over _bitcoin_.
15:37 < bsm1175321> gmaxwell: I'm referring only to range proofs, not your Elements Alpha CT implementation...
15:37 < sipa> CT is something like a 20x size increase for bitcoin transaction sizes
15:38 < pero> there are rangeproof optimizations available to monero
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15:38 < sipa> compared to CT however, MW is a massive improvemt
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15:41 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: you're missing the point though. MW (esp with the syncing signatures) makes it possible to fetch only the UTXO set and ignore the history.
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15:41 < gmaxwell> You can actually seperate out the CT part of MW and just leave it off and have the scalablity improvement without any range proofs.
15:41 < gmaxwell> though that would be silly because the value privacy is important.
15:42 < bsm1175321> I thought they were "sinking signatures". :-P
15:42 < gmaxwell> Monero's bad scalablity comes from the fact that you cannot really prune... the set of spendable coins never decreases (well in theory you can do a closure analysis to remove some of it, but thats pretty limited because hopefully the closure is all of the coins).
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15:43 < gmaxwell> CT's scalability alone is the same as bitcoin just different by a constant factor (somewhat larger transactions)-- and under /handwave handwave/ assumptions about tech progressions, any constant factor change is just equal to some number of months of tech development.
15:44 < gmaxwell> MW eliminates the need to handle history while having the same security properties as bitcoin (though losing a lot of flexiblity and making the DL assumption much more important).
15:44 < bsm1175321> Guys are there any plans yet for MW in testnet/sidechain?  Will it be added to Elements Alpha, or something else?
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15:45 < amiller> is there a current best writeup about MW
15:46 < amiller> i don't remember how it compresses history without introducing extra assumption, i.e. having UTXO commitments also allows forgetting all the history, but only if you are willing to trust SPV security which is an extra assumption, and i think MW is similar
15:46 < Chris_Stewart_5> there is one ongoing implementation that I am aware of: https://github.com/ignopeverell/grin/
15:47 < gmaxwell> amiller: no, MW is not spv security except exactly as bitcoin is (basically whomever the coins awarded to when they're generated inherently only has SPV security)
15:49 < gmaxwell> amiller: MW's UTXO set has a special property where the sum of the generated coins commitments equals the sum of the utxo commitments.  So to create a candidate utxo set you must know a sequence of private keys that connect the generations to the utxo set.
15:50 < gmaxwell> e.g. with a commited utxo set some miners could just randomly steal unspent coins from the earlier history that they're extending. With MW they could not do that.
15:51 < gmaxwell> amiller: andrew's writeup for scaling bitcoin is the best one I think.
15:51 < amiller> there's a narrow set of assumptions under which a miner could do that attack against UTXO-commitment-coin right?
15:52 < amiller> e.g. that can only happen if there's a short duration during which most of the miners go to sleep, bad miners are in charge for a few dozen blocks, and then when the rest of the miners come back online they don't sync all the history, but just do an SPV update right
15:53 < gmaxwell> amiller: dunno about narrow, a miner could exploit you with a fake utxo set if they had the most hashpower that you could see. E.g. they've partitioned you, OR they (temporarily) have most of the hashpower.
15:53 < kanzure> frib: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/mimblewimble/
15:53 < kanzure> (or whoever was asking)
15:53 < kanzure> and http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2016-11-21-mimblewimble/
15:54 < kanzure> second one is better referenced.
15:54 < amiller> ok, in that attack model, if i mined the coinbase transaction from a very old block, could I not just revert all the transactions that depended on that transaction and take them back, essentially double-spending my old coinbase transaction?
15:55 < gmaxwell> amiller: the key point is that the bitcoin white paper doesn't just flat argue that alturistic parties have most of the hashpower it argues that its economically rational to use your hashpower to cooperate... probably the weakest point of the whitepaper, in any case.  So the observation there is that if you can steal effectively arbritary amounts of bitcoin, not just what you could double spend,
15:55 < gmaxwell> the economics of defection are much more attractive.
15:55 < gmaxwell> amiller: no, because of the additional r values added by transactions (which without the sinking signatures optimization makes MW still be O(1) in transactions, though the constant factors are good.. 32 bytes per transaction.)
15:57 < amiller> ok. i still dont have a clear view of what exactly the MW verifier checks, especially when syncing, maybe i can infer it from the grin implementation tho
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15:57 < kanzure> er, read the section "Block verification" in the second talk (november)
15:57 < amiller> https://github.com/ignopeverell/grin/blob/master/doc/chainsync.md this looks pretty useful
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15:58 < amiller> the arugment specifically is that the "Partial Verification" here is just as good as full verification, or at least better than SPV verification with UTXO-commitments, right?
15:58 < frib> kanzure, thank you! i see this: Q: if I have a million transactions per second... A: Mimblewimble will not help you with this."
15:58 < gmaxwell> It doesn't help that the grin stuff doesn't implement syncing signatures.
15:59 < kanzure> frib: well, you could do something like a payment channel if you wanted that, but in general you are not going to get a million transactions/sec with any decentralized consensus protocol
15:59 < frib> so basically MW apparently resolves on-disk scalability but not real-time scalability
16:00 < frib> kanzure, i think cryptocurrency should aim to scale globally one day, no?
16:00 < kanzure> you've lost me, you're speaking gibberish now
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16:01 < gmaxwell> frib: thats an oversimplification. E.g. you could 'realtime' observe the network but skip every Nth block to lower your bandwidth usage.
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16:01 < frib> kanzure, i meant it reduces the size of the block chain but doesn't increase txns per second
16:03 < gmaxwell> frib: that depends on what the limiting factor in transactions per second is.
16:07 < frib> gmaxwell, for example?
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16:09 < gmaxwell> frib: if scalability is more limited by ECC operations, MW doesn't help much. If it is more limited by storage it helps a lot. If it is most limited by bandwidth it helps an intermediate amount (especially if there are nodes that preaggregate transactions before handing them to miners))
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16:12 < frib> gmaxwell, got it. btw what does ECC stand for?
16:12 < gmaxwell> elliptic curve cryptography.
16:16 < frib> gmaxwell, if MW can reduce storage as much as is said, what is preventing the possibility of allowing high numbers of transactions per second (i.e. on a global scale) ?
16:16 < frib> which would eliminate the need for a sidechain
16:16 < kanzure> storage isn't your bottleneck
16:16 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, what do you think is currently the most constraining factor?
16:16 < frib> kanzure, that's my question: What is the bottleneck where tps is concerned?
16:16 < kanzure> perhaps this is a  topic better for #bitcoin
16:17 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: there isn't a most constraining factor-- some users one thing, another users another thing... and our goal is to maximize the user count.
16:18 < gmaxwell> frib: I think your question actually doesn't make much sense. In Bitcoin one can achieve an arbritarily high number of transactions per second using techniques like payment channels. In MW you can achieve higher numbers of transactions per second using nodes that perform aggregation before handing tx sets to miners (and _maybe_ payment channels are also possible).
16:19 < gmaxwell> frib: without using these things really high transaction rates can _never_ be achieved by any technology, because without these techniques you're left with a broadcast medium... which inherently has limited scaling (increasing the number of nodes directly increases the total amount of resources used by the system).
16:20 < stevenroose> true. that's my primary concern about all those "we should put it on a blockchain" use cases
16:20 < stevenroose> some people still think bitcoin or ethereum "is perfect for microtransactions"
16:20 < stevenroose> it's horrible for microtransactions
16:21 < gmaxwell> most of that stuff is just garbage. Blockchain is being used as a fill in for "digital signature" or "distributed database" or "timestamped audit trail".
16:21 < gmaxwell> or "<random thing that existing systems do poorly>"  -- which is where the microtransactions come from.
16:22 < stevenroose> dont tell me.. I have to tell this to people at work on a weekly basis
16:22 < gmaxwell> Paypal is bad at microtransactions. Bitcoin is unlike paypal. Bitcoin is good at microtransactions.  Ironically, paypal's technology is superior for microtransactions. :)
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19:46 < fibonacci> In line with the topic, Can someone answer why bitcoin transaction fees are a flat rate rather than having smaller transactions utilize a more cost effective network and larger transactions that are higher priority use the standard or higher mining fee?
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19:55 < sipa> fibonacci: the fee is propertional to the resource consumption for the network, and larger transactions do consume more... but larger is measured in bytes, not in amount spent
19:56 < sipa> there are good reasons for that... every transaction does get the same security, regardless of its value
19:57 < sipa> furthermore, making larger amounts pay more would require disclosing what the amount actually is to the network... which is a pretty large privacy breach as it allows determining which addresses are change
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20:04 < gmaxwell> fibonacci: if it wasn't clear from sipa's answer, they're not at all flat rate.
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20:14 < fibonacci> Ahhh.. makes sense
20:15 < fibonacci> Privacy complicates many things doesn't it..
20:18 < sipa> and denial of service protection without identities
20:18 < sipa> if we had identities, you could just limit the number of transactions per person
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20:19 < fibonacci> So the network gets flooded by spam in other words?
20:19 < sipa> well, the question is how to avoid that
20:20 < sipa> and without identities, the only option is just limiting the global combined rate
20:20 < fibonacci> I noticed a ton of tiny transactions that didn't seem logically for any good or service.. i see
20:20 < sipa> which naturally leads to an economic balance where there is a market per resource usage
20:21 < sipa> in bitcoin, the rule that currently has the limiting effect is bytes per block
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20:21 < sipa> so a market appears where you bid for bytes
20:21 < fibonacci> So the source of the spam is undeterminable with the anonymity precursor
20:21 < sipa> right
20:22 < sipa> everybody can create as many pseudonymous identities as they want
20:22 < fibonacci> Obviously malicious though
20:22 < sipa> i guess that too is in indirect effect of privacy requirements
20:22 < sipa> it's hard to say whether it's malicious or not
20:22 < sipa> only that there is a lot of it
20:23 < fibonacci> I guess its plausibly another way to ensure anonymity fractionalizing the transaction
20:28 < fibonacci> Its a shame it has to be such a disruptive influence on the utility of bitcoins network being caught in a dichotomous struggle between anonymity and fluidity.
20:31 < gmaxwell> uh even without anonymity the same kinds of constraints exist. We live in a physical world with physical limits. You could be totally non-anonymous but you still can't have an infinite supply of transaction capacity-- you could just use things other than fees to arbritrate it-- e.g. a fair share per person, but that would arguably result in a less efficient allocation of resources. Or more likely
20:31 < gmaxwell>  people who wanted more txn would just buy access to other people's capacity allotment, and you'd be back to fees again but with a less efficient mechenism.
20:31 < sipa> well much can probably be improved with second layers
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20:35 < sipa> the whole world does not need to see every single movement of money
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20:36 < fibonacci> Yea that makes sense. It's possibly a wasteful use of resources to publish in real time every single purchase of a candy bar. Does the network have any utilized means of tracking the general location of where a transactions originate?
20:37 < fibonacci> -a
20:38 < fibonacci> Or is that purged
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20:46 < fibonacci> If you knew where the transactions originated in greatest quantuty. It seems logical to allocate regional hubs that handle local transactions, anonymize the data, and update the blockchain at scheduled low use intervals to avoid peak times where transactions flood the network. Long term implementation perhaps
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 22 00:00:12 2017