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06:15 < fm> what bitcoin wallet and service is recommended for secure and save transactions
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06:17 < waxwing> fm: use #bitcoin
06:17 < fm> thx
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07:06 < kanzure> Taek42: why did i need that list of pubkeys? can't you test whether the privkey signed, by checking the aggregate signature, without having an explicit list of pubkeys?
07:07 < Taek42> you need to be confident that everyone who spent money in that block also got the ability to prove it in the future
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07:07 < Taek42> if you can prevent someone from receiving the merkle-proof for their specific output, they will never be able to spend their money again
07:08 -!- Taek42 is now known as Taek
07:08 < kanzure> no, that's what the signature is for, i think.   if the user did not sign the signature, then they didn't spend in the block.
07:08 < kanzure> er, i mean, if the user did not sign the data
07:09 < Taek> oh hmm
07:09 < Taek> I'm not convinced that is sufficient
07:10 < Taek> you need to be certain when you see a block that an output did not get spent in the block
07:10 < kanzure> right, so the trick is: for each block that you don't receive a proof for (user claims they didn't spend), you check whether their pubkey/privkey signed the data hash by checking the aggregate signature. ya?
07:10 < Taek> and, you also want to be certain that any outputs which did get spent in the block are also spendable by the people who received the money
07:11 < Taek> yes
07:11 < Taek> hmm
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07:12 < kanzure> if they participated, then they are withholding proof data from you.  if they didn't participate, then you should not expect them to give you proof data.
07:14 < Taek> I ~think that makes sense
07:14 < kanzure> so if that mechanism exists for aggregate signatures, then we have effectively crammed an infinite quantity of transactions into a handful of hashes and signatures.
07:14 < Taek> well you've introduced a massive engineering problem though I think
07:14 < Taek> which is, how do we get x,000 transactions into a block where they are all signing the same aggregate blob, such that one person leaving doesn't derail the whole thing
07:15 < kanzure> by mining slowly and on a delay, probably
07:15 < Taek> and, I think you can make it better as well by having multiple of these blobs
07:16 < Taek> so instead of one giant blob that needs 50,000 participants to hit 50k transactions, you can have like 1000 blobs with 10-20 participants each
07:16 < Taek> and then, if you've got 20 people trying to work together to build a blob, the attack vectors from people leaving or refusing to sign aren't as significant
07:16 < Taek> you may have to repeat the whole procedure 10+ times
07:16 < Taek> or fail and find another group
07:16 < Taek> but this should happen in minutes
07:17 < Taek> Then your scalability is a multiplier of how large of a group you can form
07:17 < Taek> and that's something that devs can easily iterate on I think
07:18 < kanzure> i think i need to verify the capability of aggregate signatures to support the functions i described above
07:18 < Taek> yes I'm not sure that they are able to do that
07:18 < Taek> but I actually don't really know how aggregate signatures work
07:20 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/simons-institute/pairing-cryptography/
07:20 < kanzure> start at "BLS signatures" and/or "Signature aggregation" sections
07:22 < kanzure> or in http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016-july-bitcoin-developers-miners-meeting/dan-boneh/
07:25 < kanzure> for future reference http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-12-11.log
07:29 < kanzure> Taek: what about double spends in the same block.  i guess you need to use a deterministic location inside the tree.
07:30 < Taek> yeah, I think you'd just enforce that a person can only spend from one blob, and then also that a person can only spend from a deterministic place inside of the tree
07:31 < Taek> and then I think, but don't remember completely clearly, that you also need some extra work to make sure that coin history doesn't get exponential size growth
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07:36 < kanzure> coinbase outputs would have to be listed directly in the block, otherwise you have a weirdo hidden inflation mining problem
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18:50 < Whoroo> It would seem this 'regulation free' currency is becoming ever more regulated, is it still at all possible to buy btc with cash?..
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18:54 < Whoroo> there also seems to be a LOT of bad reviews out there re brokers, can anyone recommend a broker with a decent rep?
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18:56 < kanzure> wrong channel, go to #bitcoin
18:57 < Whoroo> kanzure, thanks
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19:06 < kanzure> andytoshi: so, you mentioned pubkey aggregation can be done with an accumulator, but i wanted to check if a single privkey participated in generating a signature (and all i know is its corresponding pubkey, and i don't know the list of other pubkeys that participated in building that signature).
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19:27 < chatter29> hey guys
19:27 < chatter29> allah is doing
19:27 < chatter29> sun is not doing allah is doing
19:27 < chatter29> to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 05 00:00:50 2017