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09:28 < musalbas> Question: why hasn't Satoshi's original blockchain pruning proposal in bitcoin.pdf, of stubbing of branches in the tree of spent transactions, been implemented?
09:28 < musalbas> Instead of deleting entire blocks and just keeping a list of UTXOs?
09:29 < musalbas> Is there no advantages of the original method, compared to the current method?
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09:32 < musalbas> If the original pruning solution is implemented, it seems to me that nodes can be safely bootstrapped with a pruned blockchain, with the worse case, a malicious person can give them a pruned blockchain with deleted UTXOs, which would create a hard fork
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09:38 < musalbas> (or, create a chain of Bitcoin with more proof-of-work that contains bad transactions..)
09:42 < andytoshi> musalbas: ...that's why, it would reduce the double-spend security to SPV
09:43 < musalbas> Oh, so in theory there would be no difference in the security model with SPV?
09:43 < musalbas> Maybe one advantage could be that it would at least allow nodes to fully verify blocks going forward, and then prune them
09:44 < musalbas> and the double-spend security would be reduced to SPV, but at least you can't be tricked into thinking money is created out of thin air
09:44 < andytoshi> double-spending is creating money out of thin air
09:45 < andytoshi> and you get this pruning benefit with the existing pruning scheme
09:46 < musalbas> but you can't bootstrap new nodes using pruned data from the existing pruning scheme as safely (using just a UTXO list), as they can't verify PoW, etc
09:48 < andytoshi> old PoW without old data doesn't prove anything
09:48 < andytoshi> and selectively-pruned old data isn't useful either
09:48 < musalbas> well SPV nodes validate old PoW without old data, so i don't see why not
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09:53 < musalbas> i suppose it would  be like SPV security for historic transactions, but full security going forward.. in exchange for faster bootstrapping
09:54 < musalbas> which i don't know if is useful
09:54 < andytoshi> it's not full security going forward because you're taking the utxoset on faith
09:54 < andytoshi> it's SPV the whole way
09:56 < musalbas> true so if the utxoset is wrong and some miner builds on top of a malicious pruned blockchain with a block containing a double spent tx, then the people using that malicious pruned blockchain are now in their own hard forked network
09:58 < musalbas> maybe there's a way for a pruned blockchain with a bad utxo set to 'self-repair', using full blocks that it now verifies going forward after bootstrapping
09:59 < musalbas> (as a malicious pruned blockchain can only delete utxos in the set)
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11:14 < gmaxwell> amiller: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.08761  I see you're thanked in this, I urge you, when talking to researchers writing about parts of bitcoin please urge them to drop a note to the people who created the parts they're writing about.
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11:16 < gmaxwell> amiller: its an interesting paper, but it's unfortunate that it misunderstood the behavior of the system in an important way.
11:16 < gmaxwell> "A key reason that
11:16 < gmaxwell> deanonymization is currently possible is because of the sym-
11:16 < gmaxwell> metry of current spreading protocols. That is, diffusion and
11:16 < gmaxwell> trickle both propagate content over the underlying graph
11:16 < gmaxwell> in all directions at roughly the same rate. This symmetry
11:16 < gmaxwell> enables powerful centrality-based attacks. Thus, a natural
11:16 < gmaxwell> solution is to break the symmetry of diffusion and trickle.
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11:16 < gmaxwell> Understanding how to break symmetry without hurting per-
11:16 < gmaxwell> formance is of both theoretical and practical interest."
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11:20 < gmaxwell> --- but it is _not_ symmetrical, the outbound links have half the lambda (twice the rate) of the inbound links; which almost impacts their eavesdroppers, since unless I've misunderstood how they've defined eavesdroppers, they are always inbound connections.
11:24 < gmaxwell> it also mischaracterizes trickle prior to that change, -- "trickle" didn't trickle, it just immediately sent out transactions with minimal reordering.
11:34 < amiller> thanks, i'll pass that on
11:34 < amiller> i don't think eavesdroppers in their model are inherently only inbound or outbound, i'm pretty sure it could be either
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11:43 < gmaxwell> amiller: yes, I suppose it could-- though it's much less effective for outbound, since you can only sample a portion of the potential victims that way.
11:49 < amiller> i didn't know about the half-lambda thing, that's interesting
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11:57 < gmaxwell> also the old trickle stuff was basically doing nothing before it was removed.. most of the time transactions came out immediately and in the same order they came in (and always if an attacker wanted them to)
11:58 < gmaxwell> amiller: there are a number of proposed enhancements (E.g. syncronizing peers in common netgroups, lowering the delay for tor peers, raising the delay for peers that seldom tell us of transactions we'd already learned of elsewhere but not told them yet-- but without a good framework for analizing the effects of such changes it's hard to make them a priority.
11:59 < gmaxwell> (and I don't think this mechenism itself will ever yield actually high levels of privacy)
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12:21 < Fibonacci> hey
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16:50 < stevenroose> Does it make sense to only broadcast your own transactions to outbound peers? Since they have a lower likelihood of being a sniffer?
16:50 < sipa> but it gives a very obvious test for those who are inbound peers
16:51 < sipa> eh, outbounds peers
16:51 < sipa> just connect back to you using a different IP, and if you only announce on the connection to them, it's clear it's a transaction from your
16:52 < stevenroose> sipa, hmm yeah that makes a lot of sense :D
16:52 < stevenroose> hmm
16:53 < gmaxwell> it's important that nothing in your network behavior depends on it being yours or not.
16:55 < stevenroose> Well, you could see "you being the first to send them that tx" being a part of your behavior. More perception maybe than 'programmed' behavior
16:55 < bsm1175321> You know...a mixing network could be used to enhance privacy...by using onion routing and timing delays, a server responding to a request doesn't know who it's for, and the local node you're connected to couldn't know what you queried.
16:55 < sipa> bsm1175321: we already have random timing delays
16:55 < gmaxwell> sure and we support and encourage just running behind tor which goes a long way towards this.
16:56 < sipa> and you can run as a tor hidden service
16:56  * bsm1175321 should do that...
16:56 < stevenroose> bsm1175321, yeah small random delays for every peer on every relay might be an idea
16:56 < sipa> stevenroose: ... that's what we're doing
16:56 < stevenroose> oh
16:56 < sipa> well s/we/bitcoin core/
16:56 < sipa> i shouldn't generalize to all software
16:56 < stevenroose> I was looking if it would be possible to do outbound relay only in btcd
16:56 < stevenroose> Let me check if they do random delays
16:57 < gmaxwell> they copied the bitcoin core behavior prior to the current behavior.
16:58 < bsm1175321> How much analysis has gone into that random delay?  I mean, traffic analysis can still work, depending on the delay and existence of other traffic...
16:59 < sipa> bsm1175321: the delays are poisson distributed
16:59 < gmaxwell> and significantly higher than the arrival rate of transactions.
16:59 < sipa> bsm1175321: so with N connections, you get N times higher temporal accuracy
16:59 < gmaxwell> The prior behavior provided ~no privacy at all.
16:59 < bsm1175321> sipa is it adaptive at all or does it use fixed Poisson parameters?
16:59 < gmaxwell> we know the (significant) independance is a problem.
17:00 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: there is a seperate parameter for incoming and outgoing connections.
17:00 < bsm1175321> Hmmm...I've been thinking about an adaptive analysis.  e.g. if you have no other traffic, that one txn you sent must have come from you, no matter the delay.
17:01 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, what was the prior behavior?
17:01 < sipa> bsm1175321: it's fixed; 0.2Hz for outbound peers, and 0.1Hz for inbound (i love using appropriate units)
17:01 < stevenroose> btcd seems to have a trickle ticker on which to send a peer all outstanding inv items
17:01 < bsm1175321> That's on par with network latencies...
17:01 < stevenroose> which is kind of random delays since these tickers are started at different times
17:02 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: yea, and does it actually work? previously in core the ticker ticked at the rate of network messages, effectively.. so you could just ping a node a bunch and empty its queue.
17:02 < sipa> stevenroose: prior behaviour was relay every transaction immediately to 1/4th randomly selected peers, and queue up the rest (in order), until a tick passes... and with unrelated network refactors that tick could be made to happen instantly
17:03 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, every peer has it's own ticker
17:03 < bsm1175321> Mixing networks also depend on a certain amount of junk traffic, to hide legitimate traffic.
17:03 < stevenroose> so it's not just wait a random time and then push to all (or all other 3/4th apparently)
17:03 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: does it then send all the transactions in the same order they came in?
17:04 < stevenroose> you mean if it scrambles the queue?
17:04 < bsm1175321> If each message had an independent timer, it would effectively scramble it...
17:04 < sipa> bsm1175321: unfortunately, that breaks tx dependencies
17:04 < bsm1175321> ugh.  true.
17:04 < sipa> core sorts the transactions by feerate and dependency order
17:05 < sipa> within each batch
17:05 < stevenroose> bsm1175321, messages don't have timers, peers have
17:05 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, it doesn't seem to scramble the queue order
17:05 < gmaxwell> yea...
17:05 < stevenroose> but that's a trivial change, I might do that
17:05 < bsm1175321> sipa: that could be overcome by having a "limbo" tx pool, waiting on missing inputs...
17:06 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: it's not totally trivial because of dependencies.
17:06 < bsm1175321> But it's trivial for an attacker to flood that pool...
17:06 < gmaxwell> damn man
17:06 < sipa> bsm1175321: dude
17:06 < sipa> bsm1175321: bitcoin has had that since 2009
17:06 < bsm1175321> Uh...so why not randomize the outgoing order again?
17:06 < sipa> randomizing is not better than sorting deterministically
17:07 < sipa> in terms of information
17:07 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, you mean that nodes handle txs in incoming inventories in arriving order?
17:07 < sipa> bsm1175321: and relying on the orphan pool (as the limbo tx pool is called) severaly hurts propagation
17:07 < bsm1175321> These ideas increase privacy at the expense of propagation...
17:08 < stevenroose> so that if two txs in the queue happen to be dependent, the receiving peer will reject one
17:08 < sipa> the current solution does not, i believe
17:08 < sipa> it sorts first in dependency order, then by feerate, then by txid
17:08 < sipa> that completely hides the ordering information to the extent possible
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17:08 < stevenroose> sipa, that's neat
17:09 < stevenroose> sipa, if I understood correctly, core does that with a queue that is held globally for all peers?
17:09 < sipa> stevenroose: no, per peer
17:09 < sipa> there are poission distributed ticks for tx relay, that fire independently for each peer
17:09 < stevenroose> oh yeah, prior behavior
17:09 < gmaxwell> outbound sending has always been per peer.
17:09 < sipa> whenever a tick happens, the set of unrelayed transactions for that peer is sorted occording to the rules above, and sent out
17:10 < gmaxwell> stevenroose btcd just reimplemented the old behavior (maybe +/- queue drain bug)
17:10 < stevenroose> sipa, gmaxwell, any chance you could point me to the code where core does the queue sorting?
17:11 < sipa> stevenroose: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net_processing.cpp#L3111-L3165
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17:12 < stevenroose> Thanks! I'm off to bed, but I'm gonna have a look at that soon(ish)!
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17:12 < sipa> stevenroose: it does a few more things, like filter our duplicates, rate-limit, and skip things that we have removed from our mempool already
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17:13 < sipa> oh, and BIP37 and BIP133 filtering
17:13 < stevenroose> prob also removing the ones that the peer already sent us by the time the tick comes
17:13 < sipa> right, that's the duplicates filtering
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17:28 < stevenroose> Does a node have an (obvious) way to distinguish a peer going offline or being banned?
17:30 < stevenroose> I guess trying a reconnect might be a way to find out, depends though
17:32 < gmaxwell> Not afaik.
17:33 < sipa> you're likely to get a reject message, i think
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17:46 < stevenroose> Supposing nodes don't occasionally randomly disconnect (which actually might not be a very bad idea..), I'm thinking that I might run a pure-listen bitcoind node next to my btcd node and monitor how often a peer disconnects from the btcd node while staying connected to bitcoind
17:48 < stevenroose> But now I'm off so bed. Great appreciation to you guys being here on IRC answering questions while you obviously all have a lot of work breathing down your necks!
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 29 00:00:11 2017