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[~rmwb@129.180.74.203] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12 -!- sipa [~pw@2001:19f0:ac01:2fb:5400:ff:fe5b:c3ff] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:17 -!- Wikiscratch [~textual@209.58.129.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:29 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@129.180.74.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:35 -!- CubicEarthh [~cubiceart@c-50-159-126-21.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:41 -!- CubicEarthh [~cubiceart@c-50-159-126-21.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:57 -!- talmai [~T@216.200.123.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:04 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:05 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 04:06 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:12 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:13 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:18 -!- str4d [~str4d@27.110.123.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 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[~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c45a:c2ca:5b18:440] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:01 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:01 -!- Wikiscratch [~textual@209.58.129.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:03 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:04 -!- thom- [~xD@haxx.pw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:04 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:11 < Taek> "and all utxo holders must either be online or they must delegate" 06:11 < Taek> That's too heavy of a requirement imo 06:11 < Taek> way too risky, what happens if you get DoS'd before you can delegate? 06:12 < Taek> Also, with accumulators, I'm pretty sure that you can only get a proof-of-non-membership if it is given to you by someone who knows all of the members of the signature 06:12 < bsm1175321> Taek violates #1,5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_distributed_computing 06:13 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14 < Taek> Has there been any work on a PoW algorithm that is simpler than existing hashing algorithms? 06:14 < Taek> I know there's been a ton of work on ASIC resistance, but I'm wondering if anyone has put serious time into ASIC acceptance (or whatever the other side of the fence is called) 06:15 < bsm1175321> It's hard to imagine something simpler. Those chips are seriously constrained by thermodynamics. 06:16 < bsm1175321> "simpler" would lead to higher power density... 06:16 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:16 < Taek> Why? cryptographic hash functions need to have collision resistance, but PoW algorithms do not 06:16 < bsm1175321> And you don't actually want that, they're too high power density already. 06:16 < Taek> further, collision resistance is pretty much the thing that always breaks, implying that it's much harder to achieve 06:16 < Taek> if you don't need it, perhaps you can simplify the algorithm / circuits 06:17 < bsm1175321> Taek: with sha256d it's already way too easy to make the feature size so small that you can't dissipate the heat... 06:17 < Taek> also, SHA256, etc. have non-obvious optimizations when griding for a partial preimage 06:17 < sipa> and still sha256d has very nontrivial optimizations 06:18 -!- goksinen [~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:b8c1:b729:9176:a20f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:18 < sipa> but i think a solution for that is just first expand the input data using something like xorshift before hashing 06:19 < sipa> which is not necessarily simplifying it 06:20 < bsm1175321> Anyone have any experience with miners using advanced thermal solutions? (liquid cooling, immersion, etc?) Anyone doing that? 06:20 < Taek> BitFury has some pretty advanced stuff they are doing 06:20 -!- goksinen [~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:b8c1:b729:9176:a20f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21 < Taek> is the thermal issue something you could solve with a more creative algorithm? I thought that was just inherent to tiny transistors 06:21 < Taek> and also, anything you design that changes how you might approach buildling an ASIC for the algorithm is more likely to have nontrivial breakthroughs later 06:22 < bsm1175321> Taek: you can make an algorithm generate less heat by slowing it down, generally, and having idle silicon lying around... 06:22 < bsm1175321> The memory-hard algorithms for instance should generate a lot less heat, because most of the memory is idle most of the time. 06:22 < Taek> I feel like any time you have idle silicon, your optimization expert is going to try and find a way to make it not-idle 06:22 < sipa> yup 06:23 < Taek> much better to have something where the entire board is operating at 100% the entire time 06:23 < sipa> run two instances of the problem in parallel, with a phase shift 06:23 < bsm1175321> Taek: you literally can't do that with modern feature sizes on modern CMOS silicon. You will melt it. 06:26 -!- liead is now known as adlai 06:27 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:27 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28 < Taek> if you are melting the board you've pushed it past 100% lol 06:28 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:29 < bsm1175321> There's a branch of computing called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing 06:29 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c45a:c2ca:5b18:440] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:29 -!- K1NGREX [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:29 < bsm1175321> The idea being that if you can reverse a computation, it's isentropic, and generates no heat. 06:30 < bsm1175321> Hash functions are the extreme end of irreversible computations. 06:30 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:30 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30 < Taek> yeah lol you can't use reversible computation to do PoW 06:30 -!- thom [xD@haxx.pw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:32 < bsm1175321> Yeah another way to state "reversible computation" is that work=zero. 06:33 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:38 -!- AEM is now known as aem 06:39 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:43 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53 -!- saintromuald [~saintromu@dynamic-acs-24-239-99-170.zoominternet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xwndelvbfisvvnzo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 06:57 -!- talmai [~T@216.200.123.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:05 < andytoshi> our CA implementation is announced https://blockstream.com/2017/04/03/blockstream-releases-elements-confidential-assets.html 07:05 < warren> check out the shiny screenshots in the demo https://github.com/ElementsProject/confidential-assets-demo 07:09 -!- aburan [~androirc@2600:380:8431:1d35:b57e:330a:6646:1ffc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20 < andytoshi> 00000000 07:21 < warren> that's my blinding key! 07:21 < andytoshi> haha, sorry, mis-paste 07:27 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c45a:c2ca:5b18:440] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:27 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:29 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:33 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:36 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:36 -!- isis [~isis@abulafia.patternsinthevoid.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:38 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qnqtwwnfkpjphmbe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:40 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:41 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:42 -!- isis [~isis@abulafia.patternsinthevoid.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:44 -!- talmai [~T@216.200.123.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@2604:5500:17:2ea:e419:2bd8:12fa:ed9c] has quit [Quit: .] 07:46 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:49 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@2604:5500:17:2ea:b99b:2566:9d6f:44b2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:57 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.223.80] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:57 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:59 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.223.80] has quit [Changing host] 07:59 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:59 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c45a:c2ca:5b18:440] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:04 -!- wangchun [~wangchun@li414-193.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07 -!- danrobinson [~danrobins@2604:2000:e080:d400:c5e9:feed:5323:12e5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:14 -!- MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 08:17 -!- ygerald [b903936a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.185.3.147.106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 < ygerald> andytoshi, Could CA work on bitcoin mainnet? 08:19 < andytoshi> ygerald: as well as CT could 08:19 < andytoshi> not really, it would increase the verification load too much 08:20 < sipa> it would also be very much incentive incompatible with bitcoin 08:20 < sipa> supporting competing currencies, while making bitcoin nodes do the work... 08:21 -!- smartcontracts1 [605243c6@2606:2e00:8003:1:225:90ff:feb5:1e30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22 < andytoshi> ygerald: it is entirely compatible with mimblewimble (incentive questions notwithstanding) 08:25 -!- smartcontracts1 [605243c6@2606:2e00:8003:1:225:90ff:feb5:1e30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:28 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@rtc35-020.rentec.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:33 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@static-98-114-125-87.phlapa.ftas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:35 < warren> ygerald: elements includes the sidechain peg mechanism which enables bitcoin to transact on parallel networks. I hope that Bitcoin can become more valuable as both the fuel and unit of account for many networks. 08:36 < warren> other networks with CA, or MW 08:47 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-25-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 < waxwing> shibuya station? is that where mark used to buy them? 08:51 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:54 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c45a:c2ca:5b18:440] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 -!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-123-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@52.119.113.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:21 -!- smk [b8952953@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.149.41.83] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c45a:c2ca:5b18:440] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:39 -!- MaxSan [~one@46.19.137.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:42 -!- 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