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06:37 < kanzure> https://blog.torproject.org/blog/cooking-onions-names-your-onions
06:37 < kanzure> and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14038013
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07:12 < kanzure> "Constructing cryptographic hash functions from fixed-key blockciphers" https://www.iacr.org/archive/crypto2008/51570433/51570433.pdf
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07:54 < sipa> Alanius: hey
07:54 < Alanius> sipa: message received
08:01 < kanzure> was that the uasf activation codesequence?
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12:23 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14041827
12:23 < yoleaux> Ask HN: Current Crypto Best Practices | Hacker News
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12:34 < oleganza> http://forum.stanford.edu/events/2017benbunzinfo.php
12:34 < oleganza> "Better Bitcoin Confidential Transactions using short Range Proofs", next Monday at Stanford.
12:36 < kanzure> stream?
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12:38 < oleganza> stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_TREZzeerA
12:38 < waxwing> looks interesting oleganza :)
12:38 < oleganza> whole program: http://forum.stanford.edu/events/2017security.php
12:39 < oleganza> my wild guess is that it'll be based on pairings :)
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12:47 < kanzure> thanks for streamlink
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16:06 < Taek> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013996.html
16:07 < Taek> "Reverse engineering of a particular mining chip has demonstrated conclusively that ASICBOOST has been implemented in hardware."
16:07 < Taek> if segwit breaks that hardware optimization, it would explain resistance to move to segwit
16:08 < oleganza> "Had there been awareness of exploitation of this attack an effort would have been made to avoid incompatibility-- simply to separate concerns.  But the best methods of implementing the covert attack are significantly incompatible with virtually any method of extending Bitcoin's transaction capabilities;"
16:10 < gmaxwell> oleganza: was that hard to read?  I think if we knew there were this concern we would have tried to engineer around it (while seperately other people would probably have written BIPs to go block the attack).  So as to avoid foolishness like people arguing against segwit because they just wanted to preserve their ability to boost.
16:12 < oleganza> i'm just highlighting the point you make. Do you say that even if you knew about that attack, it'd be a huge PITA to engineer around it?
16:13 < oleganza> i understand and support the "separation of concerns" argument
16:15 < oleganza> i'm worried that miners won't be too excited to obsolete their machines too early or too sharply on the flag date.
16:15 < oleganza> (Amazing investigation, by the way, gmaxwell!)
16:16 < kanzure> the attack details were known, not known was whether the covert method was implemented
16:17 < kanzure> (because it's, you know, covert and such.)
16:18 < oleganza> kanzure: got it.
16:20 < gmaxwell> oleganza: yea, part of what I spent the last month doing is trying to figure out how to engineer around it.
16:21 < gmaxwell> I do not believe any machine (even by parties using asicboost) would be obsoleted.
16:22 < gmaxwell> oleganza: I don't think there is any way to engineer around it that doesn't add non-trivial amount of complexity and technical debt. Which means there is no way I could propose it without spelling out exactly what it is trying to accomidate, which then people would oppose because boosting is bad news for Bitcoin's future if held privately.
16:22 < oleganza> yup
16:23 < oleganza> won't this BIP mean ASICBOOST users lose their 30% advantage?
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16:23 < gmaxwell> oleganza: yes. Well: (1) they could mine empty blocks, or (2) they could use the version bits modifying form. (I believe it is very likely that any hardware which can do the root griding form can also do the version modifying form).
16:24 < gmaxwell> Of course, the first loses transaction fees, and both are very obvious, which would fuel efforts to block the further use, or licensing from the patent holders.
16:25 < oleganza> when you say "coinbase MUST either contain a BIP-141 segwit commitment or a correct WTXID commitment with ID 0xaa21a9ef" do you mean a WTXID for the empty block?
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16:26 < oleganza> by 0xaa21a9ef do you mean 0xaa21a9ef0000000000000...0000 where all-zero hash is the witness root of the empty block? I'm confused on what's the  difference between the two allowed commitments.
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16:36 < oleganza> Ouch, that's for the non-segwit miners: "Non-segwit miners can become compatible by simply including an additional output matching a default commitment value returned as part of getblocktemplate."
16:36 < oleganza> question withdrawn
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18:36 < chatter29> hey guys
18:36 < chatter29> allah is doing
18:36 < chatter29> sun is not doing allah is doing
18:36 < chatter29> to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
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19:38 < brianhoffman> gmaxwell: curious why you included Sergio in the BIP if he didn't even own the patents anymore
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19:42 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: can I ask for a clarification? is there not another place to put the segwit commitment now that would be compatible with ASICBOOST?
19:51 < Taek> and could you do it in a way that doesn't invalidate all the code that segwit-ready companies have already written?
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20:04 < jeremyrubin> Well thats a "dev time v.s. miner time" thing, no?
20:04 < jeremyrubin> I think I have an idea... let me research it a bit more
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20:05 < Taek> it impacts a practical deployment timeline, and also psychological willingness. If you have to get companies to re-segwit-ify themselves, they will be discouraged.
20:06 < Taek> btw, I'm not saying that you can't get away with it, I'm just saying that if you can avoid it, that's a much better situation
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20:09 < gmaxwell> brianhoffman: as far as the patent office is concerned he does.
20:09 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: I don't believe there is any alternative that doesn't break covert asicboost.
20:10 < jeremyrubin> I guess my question is why not exclude coinbase from witness commitment
20:10 < gmaxwell> it is excluded.
20:10 < gmaxwell> (how would it not be, that would be circular!)
20:10 < gmaxwell> the problem is that the left side cannot commit to the right side, or vice versa.
20:10 < jeremyrubin> If you just committed to extranonce
20:10 < jeremyrubin> would not be circular
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20:11 < jeremyrubin> *an extranonce
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20:20 < oleganza> would that ugly method work: 2 segwit commitment txs, one in the middle of the block, another in the end of the block. The first one commits to the txs in the left side of the tx merkle tree, the second one commits to the txs in the right side? Not advocating for it, but entertaining an idea.
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20:33 < gmaxwell> oleganza: yes, but thats also like, "extension block" level of ugly, and it _still_ may break a specific construction of boost, which might not strictly use left and right but could be 2/4th and 3/4th or whatever.
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20:36 < gmaxwell> oleganza: the problem with anything especially ugly (e.g. requring creating extra 0 value anyonecanspend coinbase outputs, and special dummy transactions to spend them and hold the commitments, ... and two different locations... basically it would be technical debt that people would argue we shouldn't take when we should be blocking the change..
20:38 < jeremyrubin> Oh I think I'm understanding it more now
20:39 < jeremyrubin> the part I was missing is the merkle tree generation part -- that would really benefit from a diagram
20:50 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: what about sorting just the witness commitments?
20:50 < jeremyrubin> that way when you permute the tree things don't change
20:51 < jeremyrubin> Obviously that creates a problem with actually properly matching witnesses to txns
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20:52 < jeremyrubin> But there are a couple tricks one could use to make that less bad.
20:54 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: sorting breaks boosting if the boosting is done with replacement rather than permutation; and it makes it harder to use the transactions due to dependencies, and would fall into the "crapping up the proposal to accomidate a propritary advatage that we should block anyways" pit.
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20:54 < jeremyrubin> Gotcha, so you are unaware if it's a permutation or a replacement thing, got it
20:55 < jeremyrubin> and I agree, crapping up code to support something like this is negative
20:55 < jeremyrubin> I am aware you spent a lot of time probably going through all possibilities
20:56 < Taek> proprietary only in certain jurisdictions. Jurisdictions that have a history of enforcing garbage patents, meaning we have no guarantees that this patent BS won't crop up again
20:56 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: yea, I don't mind discussing them.
20:57 < jeremyrubin> would be great if you could make a bit more of that public if you have notes on the alternatives which don't work
20:57 < gmaxwell> Also I suffered a constraint that we would discard now: I was hoping for a proposed change that I could make without disclosing that I thought asicboost was in use.
20:58 < jeremyrubin> If it's a lot of work to compile maybe not worth it
20:58 < kanzure> Taek: also the jurisdiction is a little fuzzy; it's not just the origin, it's also tihngs like foundries and other foundries that might make related masks.
20:59 < Taek> kanzure: can you explain that more? I don't quite understand
20:59 < kanzure> people think it be like non-intersecting circles, but it's more like a disgusting hairball
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21:00 < Taek> somehow that made sense
21:00 < gmaxwell> Taek: there is basically nowhere where garbage patents aren't enforced because everyone does business internationally. Patent holder goes and get a judgement against _TSMC_ which is actually building the patent infringing device (in the unlikely case that they don't immediate settle) then starts intercepting their shipments into the US endangering their many billion dollar business.
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21:01 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: what if the witness is sorted and a merkle hashmap rather than a tree?
21:01 < jeremyrubin> and then you allow unbalanced trees
21:01 < kanzure> ya and if TSMC is no-go then you go after other stupid stuff like the carriers or whatever... and on and on.
21:01 < jeremyrubin> with garbage branches
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21:02 < gmaxwell> Taek: or start going after bitcoin echanges to seize the resulting coins... no end of the stupid people can get up to.
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21:02 < jeremyrubin> does muck up the code a bit, but I think the hashmap part is semi-sane (more decoupled witness from txn structure)
21:02 < Taek> my point was more that the current effort only solves things one garbage patent at a time
21:02 < gmaxwell> and there are companies that will do enforcement for you and just spend all the money, they don't care if it's really profitable... best for them if the enforcement action is inefficient in fact.
21:03 < gmaxwell> Taek: my proposal doesn't solve the patent at all, it leave it alone.
21:03 < jeremyrubin> And allowing garbage branches is already allowed with the reserved commitment
21:03 < gmaxwell> It specifically addresses the protocol disruption.
21:03 < Taek> ah, right
21:04 < jeremyrubin> actually sorting works fine if you key on the transactions being sorted to match the witnesses to transactions
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21:04 < jeremyrubin> without an extra hash field
21:05 < gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: there is match the witnesses.
21:05 < gmaxwell> the witness commitment commits to the whole transactions not just the witnesses.
21:06 < gmaxwell> and it doesn't work if the boost search works by changing the transactions out for other transactions.
21:06 < jeremyrubin> (trying to avoid the O(n^2) mathing problem)
21:07 < jeremyrubin> I'm still not sure I understand how replacing transactions works... isn't modifying at the bottom layer problematic for hashing overhead anyways?
21:09 < jeremyrubin> I'm pretty sure that re-ordering makes much more sense than replace
21:09 < jeremyrubin> \me repeals and replaces
21:10  * jeremyrubin slash...
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21:13 < gmaxwell> I believe replacing is much easier to implement in the inner loop, and also harder to detect. But part of the problem is just guessing at what someone is doing.
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21:29 < jeremyrubin> Oh I see how replacing works
21:29 < jeremyrubin> hm
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21:51 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: I really don't like this, but here it goes anyways; committing to witness data in the following block would work. You can get around witness malleability by signing witness with a key in the coinbase TX.
21:52 < sipa> jeremyrubin: well if you're going to redo segwit from scratch there are plenty of other options
21:52 < jeremyrubin> So witnesses could be malleated only by the miner who mined the block only until the next block comes and commits to the witness
21:52 < jeremyrubin> sipa: I think that it's fairly reasonable to consider that's what should be done
21:53 < sipa> why?
21:53 < jeremyrubin> Taek made some good points on list
21:53 < sipa> ok, not going to look.there
21:55 < jeremyrubin> ok, suit yourself :)
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21:57 < jeremyrubin> Also not committing to witnesses in the same block isn't exactly redoing segwit from scratch... almost all of the logic remains practically the same.
21:58 < jeremyrubin> you just instead look for the signed commitment first (only to mitigate malleation of signatures), and wait till next block for the comitted version.
21:59 < sipa> new softfork, new p2p extension, ...
21:59 < sipa> doesn't seem worth it to me
22:00 < jeremyrubin> well if you're a miner, it's $100M in new mining equiptment, so worth it you're willing to *if conspiricies are accurate* fund multiple dev teams and smear campaigns to try to stop it
22:01 < Taek> was pointed out to me in #bitcoin-core-dev that nversion griding is still available to the hardware that got reversed, you just can't covertly do it anymore
22:01 < Taek> but the covert part has been blown anyway
22:02 < jeremyrubin> I don't think it's great that the covert part gets blown away...
22:03 < jeremyrubin> what sucks is that it interferes with the obvious way to do software extensions
22:03 < jeremyrubin> That seems to be the only point worth addressing
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22:19 < gmaxwell> 21:51 < jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: I really don't like this, but here it goes anyways; committing to witness data in the following block would  work. You can get around witness malleability by signing witness with a key in the coinbase TX.
22:20 < gmaxwell> that would solve it at the disadvantage of basically defeating the existance of full nodes.
22:20 < gmaxwell> since anyone could give you blocks with damaged witnesses and you couldn't validate the block.
22:20 < gmaxwell> until the next block, which does you no good if you're trying to mine.
22:22 < danrobinson> but can't you just reject the block then and blacklist the sender? then if you get the block with the undamaged witness from someone else, you'll be able to validate it
22:22 < danrobinson> I guess I never really understood why the witness commitment is necessary at all
22:25 < gmaxwell> at a cost of basically an unbounded dos attack that lets someone force you to reprocess the whole block over and over agains as many times as they can offer it to you.
22:25 < gmaxwell> and (if there is no commitment) without being able to have a durable history of what happened.
22:33 < danrobinson> they can already do that with transactions, right? is it just that blocks are bigger? this is a significantly worse DoS than any that are possible in Bitcoin Core now? (i mean, i take your word for it)
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22:39 < danrobinson> this just feels like a p2p-layer problem (though I say that as someone who has essentially no experience with the p2p layer). if you found a reliable source for block witnesses, you could only listen to them (for witnesses) until they either give you a bad witness or fail to give you a witness for a block you see
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22:45 < sipa> danrobinson: yes, in order to make bitcoin core spend the (very significant) effort of trying to validate a block, the attacker must produce valid PoW
22:45 < sipa> by having blocks commit to all data needed for validation, you guarantee that every valid PoW can only be used once
22:46 < sipa> by removing the direct commitmemt, anyone could take a valid block, invalidate the witness, amd send it to us
22:46 < sipa> for no cost
22:56 < danrobinson> fair enough. although using the block PoW for just DoS prevention is kinda overkill--maybe you could just require a separate smaller fixed-difficulty hashcash for the witness commitment, roughly proportional to the work of validating a block. and leaving out the commitment would solve not only this but the whole silly objection about the complexity of putting data in the coinbase for SWSF. but i get that that
22:56 < danrobinson>  would be arguably more complex and less secure, and i don't mean to be second-guessing basic parts of segwit at this point
22:57 < sipa> fixed-difficulty is pointless
22:57 < sipa> you can't predict how hard that will be in the fiture
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23:02 < danrobinson> this wouldn't have to be hard-coded into the protocol at all, though
23:02 < danrobinson> it could be a node policy
23:03 < sipa> right, fair enough
23:03 < sipa> still, i don't see how it's superior to committing to witnesses
23:04 < sipa> which gives a natural solution without extra policy
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23:05 < danrobinson> well i think you've heard the objection that putting commitments in the coinbase is not a natural solution, but putting that aside
23:06 < sipa> that's not the most elegant way of doing it for sure, but the best we can do without a hard fork
23:07 < danrobinson> well except for leaving the commitment out entirely
23:07 < sipa> "using nuclear power is ugly, let's abolish electricity entirely"
23:07 < danrobinson> haha
23:08 < gmaxwell> go look at zcash they ignorantly tried to implement segwit without a commitment and were full of vulnerabilities as a result and had to back it out.
23:08 < gmaxwell> And thats even before getting into the point that being able to get the actual witness is important for auditablity.. which keys actually authorized a transaction?
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23:09 < danrobinson> oh really? i hadn't seen that re zcash
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23:10 < gmaxwell> Also it's a requirement for any kind of compact fraud proof for an invalid spend.
23:11 < danrobinson> fair enough, good reasons
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 06 00:00:19 2017