--- Log opened Fri Apr 07 00:00:19 2017
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00:08 < andytoshi> sorry, i dropped off, was distracted by the conference i'm speaking at .. can you explain what "therefore the only difficulty metric we have to play with is the bit-length" means? how does this affect any QC advantage in pow?
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00:19 < da2ce7> if traditional pow difficulty value is: 80bit,  then the qc-equiv is 40bit.So either you have to design non-qc asics that are fast at 90bit, or design qc asic's that are fast at 45bit.
00:20 < da2ce7> you increase the difficulty by increasing the bit-length of the hash.  forcing both qc and non-qc to make bigger miners.
00:22 < da2ce7> I mean if the difficulty increases from 80bit to 90bit,  either you need more non-qc miners, or you need to design new qc-miners that can manage larger qc states.
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01:23 < andytoshi> what are you trying to accomplish?
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02:12 < stevenroose> if I understand the extension blocks proposal (the to the moon one) correctly, it's more like a "block extension" than "extension blocks" in the sense that there is only one extension block per block, no?
02:12 < stevenroose> not sure
02:17 < stevenroose> sipa, is there a specific reason for the choice of the commitment header value (0xaa21a9ed)? I always wondered, especially now that extension blocks are using the same value incremented (0xaa21a9ef)
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02:17 < sipa> stevenroose: no
02:18 < sipa> it's just random, unlikely to ever appear randomly in a transaction output
02:20 < stevenroose> sipa, not randomly no, what happens if it's included intentionally? the block is just gonna be considered invalid, right?
02:20 < stevenroose> makes sense
02:20 < sipa> yes, it would make the block invalid
02:20 < sipa> so it's chosen to be unlikely to appear accidentally
02:21 < stevenroose> pickandomHeader() { return 0xaa21a9ed; /* chosen by Pieter Wuille. guaranteed to be random. */ }
02:21 < stevenroose> (cfr xkcd :D)
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02:56 < sipa> stevenroose: it's like the network magic
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03:11 < stevenroose> sipa, yeah I know. satoshi picked that one, right? no one ever found any symbolism in the value?
03:11 < stevenroose> I love when people go nuts looking for Satoshi symbolism, like here https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/229qvr/happy_birthday_satoshi_nakamoto/
03:18 < da2ce7> andytoshi, a pow system that doesn't break when QC becomes available, so it must have a smooth transaction from conventional computing to quantum computing.
03:18 < sipa> da2ce7: i don't see how that is possible
03:19 < sipa> da2ce7: any PoW system is going to be subject to Grover's algorithm, I think?
03:19 < da2ce7> sipa: the solution is to set the bit-length of the hash as the difficulty, not a target number.  Increase the difficulty will make it harder to design a QC computer for the problem.
03:21 < da2ce7> the problem is that sha256 has a constant engineering difficulty  for QC.
03:22 < da2ce7> and the engineering intersection point between conventional and qc computers may be something like 40bit apart.
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03:23 < da2ce7> If the bit-length IS the difficulty, then there will be a smooth transaction.
03:24 < sipa> ah, you're relying on the engineering difficulty for QC
03:24 < sipa> rather than assuming an arbitrary-qbit machine will randomly appear
03:24 < da2ce7> of course, as non-qc is just a subset of qc computing.
03:25 < da2ce7> what is happening is that non-qc pow can be seen as a very inefficient qc computer.
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03:43 < da2ce7> If we used a shorter hash, maybe 100bit, then I don't think that we would be qc vulnerable, as the intersection point would always be in the non-pow favour.
03:43 < da2ce7> er. non-qc-pow favour.
03:45 < da2ce7> as-in, it will always be cheaper to emulate the state of a 100bit computer than to compute it with qc.
03:46 < da2ce7> *hash function not computer.
03:47 < da2ce7> like it is with the extreme case, nobody is going to use a qc to solve 16bit hashes.
03:49 < da2ce7> it would be nice for bitcoin to one-day drive the development of QC for humanity, so picking a 'fair' pow system would mean that you don't preference qc or non-qc.
03:52 < da2ce7> this also means that Bitcoin has a hard-coded difficulty bomb, kinda like etherium; that strongly preferences qc computing. I believe that this is extremely centralising; as it is about designing a computer that has a single state, the bigger-and-more-isolated it is; the better it will be.
03:55 < da2ce7> having a balanced qc / non-qc computing problem also solves the '"The bitcoin miner just ate the last energy of the sun", problem.  As is becomes both a engineering and resource usage problem.
03:56 < da2ce7> As energy becomes more expensive, people will move to qc mining, as energy becomes cheaper, they move back to conventional computing.
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04:21 < da2ce7> https://unenumerated.blogspot.de/2017/03/collecting-metal-inner-and-outer-worlds.html
04:22 < da2ce7> just like there is two forms of money: bullion, and jewellery.  We should balance the "proof-of-work", between manual labour and creative design.
04:23 < da2ce7> qc being the creative design, and non-qc being manual labour.
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08:46 < tromp__> da2cey: only hashcash pow is vulnerable to grover search
08:50 < tromp__> da2ce7 i mean...
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10:22 < kanzure> "The proof of constraint satisfaction problem dichotomy conjecture" https://arxiv.org/abs/1704.01914
10:23 < kanzure> "A dichotomy theorem for nonuniform CSPs" https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.03021
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12:54 < kanzure> is there a proof-of-work function that could be horrendously large to implement (megabytes?), without non-obvious optimizations and other speedups (by some sort of guarantee), but also still absurdly fast to verify?
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13:15 < sipa> kanzure: assuming you accept it will eventually have an asic for it, what does "megabytes" mean?
13:16 < kanzure> i was measuring size of the function in terms of bytes to implement
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13:18 < kanzure> it doesn't seem to give us anything, though.
13:19 < kanzure> botnet operators might be less willing to deploy a 200 MB pow function in the event of a pow change
13:20 < kanzure> if the total software required is like <100 kilobytes, that's really simple for a botnet operator to deploy to hundreds of thousands of machines. but 200 MB?
13:21 < gmaxwell> pretty sure thats trivial to deploy too.. step one link bittorent library.
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13:22 < kanzure> i wonder if the well-implemented botnets are already using torrenting these days. hm.
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14:10 < tromp__> yes, kanzure, there are such pows. but the verifier will need access to those 100s of MB too
14:14 < gmaxwell> tromp__: why do you say this?
14:15 < gmaxwell> consider a system where you have some large amount of fixed data. Build a hashtree over it.  Verifiers know the root.
14:16 < tromp__> ok, then verifiers can remain small
14:16 < gmaxwell> now, compute H(input)->key1  then compute H(input||key1)->key2 for some numbers of iterations, and you show the verifiers membership proofs.
14:16 < gmaxwell> but your proofs are then kinda big.
14:16 < tromp__> yes, that's downside
14:16 < gmaxwell> if you do not sample enough places the prover can just keep a subset and throw out answers that sample the wrong portions.
14:16 < tromp__> they go from a few hundred byte to dozens of kb
14:17 < gmaxwell> yes. Though you could negoiate sending the proofs on a case by case basis... or if showing multiple proofs (like in an initial download) take a union of their memberships.
14:17 < tromp__> in the merkle tree proof pow, they suggest using 70 samples
14:17 < gmaxwell> so if the verifier does have the data you could just skip sending the proof.
14:18 < gmaxwell> yes, you probably need a LOT so that a 'memoryless' implementation on some fast asic isn't a win.
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14:32 < tromp__> do you remember the Momentum PoW?
14:35 < tromp__> covert ASICboost is basically solving a Momentum / Hashcash hybrid PoW
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14:44 < tromp__> actually, the overt form as well
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14:58 < gmaxwell> hm? there is no collision generating part in the overt form.
14:59 < gmaxwell> both are exploiting the fact that the first chunk of the second compression run depends on part of the input, to allow sharing work.
15:00 < gmaxwell> the covert kind uses a partial collision to arrange sharable work, the overt kind just does it directly
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15:01 < tromp__> yes, you're right. only covert form generates collissions. sorry for misunderstanding overt form
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15:03 < tromp__> anyway, rationale for fixing covert asicboost is clear; we don't want pow to be a complex hybrid of two different pows
15:04 < tromp__> one of which is alrd broken in itself by having sublinear time/memory tradeoffs
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16:41 < gmaxwell> random altcoiny observation, you can use an open ended presale to pretend an arbritarily large premine was actually open... just use whatever funds come in to also 'buy' more coins... and just print however many you want. Or you can use any fraction of the funds to still get a big upfront amount, but guarentee that you'll own whatever fraction of the result you want.
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16:49 < oleganza> pardon my ignorance, i've asked that question 2 years ago. What's the reason in BIP32 for adding Hash(P,i)*G to parent pubkey instead of multiplying factor by the parent pubkey: Hash(P,i)*P? Is it only performance (scalarmult by a base point can use some precomputed data specific to base point)?
16:49 < oleganza> I'm asking to figure out if there are some weird schemes where "blinding" (in terms of Tor HKD proposal) by multiplication is more useful than adding?
16:51 < oleganza> (also signing is obviously faster because scalar addition is faster than multiplication)
16:52 < oleganza> Context: BIP32 uses addition, but Tor's "blinded keys" scheme uses multiplication.
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17:09 < gmaxwell> It's not clear to me why multiplying would ever be more attractive. If the scalar you multiply by has low multiplicative order, I don't think you even get a uniform point out.  Multiplying is also enormously slower-- which is a concern if you need to enumerate many keys.
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17:10 < gmaxwell> oleganza: careful too, I've seen something confuse adding and multiplying because of markup that uses addition vs multiplication for the group operation.
17:11 < oleganza> haha. That's a mess, indeed
17:11 < oleganza> gmaxwell: thanks for your reply to [curves]
17:12 < gmaxwell> oleganza: it was kinda offtopic. But I dunno, I think the ed25519 and sybling curves are interesting and nice but their advantages are overhyped and their weaknesses ignored. I always feel stupid complaining about it.
17:13 < oleganza> i noticed that a proportion of cargoculting and confusion to actual reasoning is 10:1.
17:13 < gmaxwell> I think anyone trying to do hierarchical keys with 25519 are going to have a bad time, no matter what you do you'll find the resulting keys incompatible with some software.
17:13 < oleganza> that's me, right now
17:14 < oleganza> btw, why the "chain code" is called "chain code"?
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17:14 < gmaxwell> I had a conversation about this with DJB a while ago, and his remark was you can just fix things to make it work, e.g. eliminate the high bit requirement, multiply by the cofactor. Which is true and all but it breaks things, in non-trivial ways.
17:14 < gmaxwell> oleganza: maybe sipa remembers.
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17:15 < gmaxwell> I can imagine implementations removing the high bit requirement and then mishandling infinity in the addition function... but not noticing it because of pretty good odds of test vectors passing.
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17:17 < oleganza> didn't DJB say that point of infinity is handled automagically? https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cfrg/current/msg05004.html
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17:21 < gmaxwell> oleganza: in the curve25519 montgomery stuff perhaps, but common ed25519 implementations need their multiply to handle it.  Unless my memory is entirely wrong (maybe is), donna demands the most significant bit of the scalar to be set for the xG used for pubkey generation, because the underlying 'constant time' point addition lacks the conditional move to handle infinity.
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17:23 < gmaxwell> and, of course, even one widely used implementation making use of that optimization means you're in for a world of compatiblity issues.
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19:54 < kanzure> "Delivery technologies for genome editing" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene-therapy/Delivery%20technologies%20for%20genome%20editing%20-%202017.pdf
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20:08 < kanzure> "Programmable genome editing tools and their regulation for efficient genome engineering" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene-therapy/Programmable%20genome%20editing%20tools%20and%20their%20regulation%20for%20efficient%20genome%20engineering%20-%202017.pdf
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20:23 < Chris_Stewart_5> al/exit
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23:53 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: re: crowdsales, that's pretty much why the SEC needs to make an example of *some* ICO
--- Log closed Sat Apr 08 00:00:20 2017