--- Log opened Wed May 17 00:00:56 2017
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03:23 < waxwing> wow this is an interesting bit of history http://web.archive.org/web/19991205091737/http://privacy.nb.ca/cryptography/archives/coderpunks/new/1998-08/0006.html
03:23 < waxwing> seems to be claus schnorr arguing that you can't get around his patent
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05:11 < andytoshi> lol what a dick
05:11 < waxwing> heh. wonder if the 1K is still up for grabs :)
05:30 < kanzure> "privacy-enhancing technologies symposium" https://petsymposium.org/2017/paperlist.php
05:31 < kanzure> "Hardening stratum" https://petsymposium.org/2017/papers/issue3/paper14-2017-3-source.pdf
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08:24 < Jellyfish> Hello wizards, is Bitcoin sync or async?
08:25 < Jellyfish> Is a sync Byzantine consensus or not?
08:26 < kanzure> does synchronous mean violates speed of light?
08:27 < andytoshi> Jellyfish: bitcoin does require a syncronous network (though it doesn't require messages arrive in order and some peers can tolerate several minutes or hours of delay without issue, depending how they're using the system)
08:28 < Jellyfish> So it's weakly sync? Why is that?
08:28 < Jellyfish> Thanks andytoshi
08:29 < andytoshi> because that's the weakest assumption we can still get a working network on :P
08:29 < Jellyfish> Why is it not async?
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08:30 < andytoshi> because in an async network you can't guarantee that everyone eventually learns about all transactions, so you can't prevent double-spending (at least as far as i can see)
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08:31 < andytoshi> i think petertodd has some ideas about sharding that can let peers get closer to async (with respect to the global blockchain) by having spenders give full proofs to receivers
08:32 < andytoshi> but the analysis is complicated, i don't fully grok it
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09:12 < Taek> [18:11:00] <gmaxwell> amusingly you could produce an exo-timestamper.  E.g. whenever you transact you offer a timestamp server to timestamp for it.  If you successfully return a useful proof to it.. it gives you tokens yous you can use to ask it to timestamp things later. :P
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09:12 < Taek> [18:11:13] <gmaxwell> and the timestamp server itself never transacts, except if no one else does for a long time.
09:12 < Taek> ^ that sounds really awesome.
09:13 < Taek> imagine adding an RPC to bitcoin nodes that just allows you to insert some data into their transactions
09:14 < Taek> I guess this has privacy issues for the nodes opening themselves up for this type of service
09:15 < Taek> If I may offer some thoughts on Segwit, it is my hope that the next deployment includes a UASF fallback after something like a 12 month cooldown. There are enough companies in the space supporting segwit to force it through I think
09:15 < Taek> it just needs to be something that everyone obviously has enough time to get on board with, so there's no question which chain is the dominant one in the event of a split
09:16 < Taek> but, I will also say that I believe Bitcoin stagnating here would be better than employing coercion or a hardfork to get more features into Bitcoin
09:16 < Taek> UASF already makes me uncomfortable, and I actively oppose BIP148 because I don't think the deployment horizon is good enough.
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10:24 < bsm117532> Jellyfish, andytoshi you might be interested in amiller's Honey Badger on the topic of async consensus: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/199
10:26 < amiller> i want to see a partially synchronous blockchain protocol
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10:26 < amiller> where the chain doesn't have a timing parameter inherently built in, but it can still be usable by people very far away
10:27 < amiller> i was thinking of some kind of approach where the sender of each transaction "chooses" waht timeout they consider acceptable, like if you want to send a coin to mars you would indicate that you want to be on the "2 hours" level of the blockchain
10:27 < bsm117532> amiller: I want to see a dynamically tuned timing parameter, that measures the network size...and the network slows down once you add the node on mars...
10:28 < amiller> sucks to slow everyone down just because there's a small mars colony
10:28 < bsm117532> Just insert a relay.
10:28 < amiller> i still am wondering whether that's inherent or not
10:28 < bsm117532> e.g. make hub and spoke subnets.
10:29 < amiller> pfft, you can't bring practical shortcuts to a discussion about mars
10:29 < sipa> how do you mean, all you need is a wormhole?
10:29  * sipa hides
10:30 < amiller> im hoping there's some theoretically nice solution and we can take the practical shortcuts like a relay when mars is actually colonized
10:30 < amiller> banking financial hubs at the L2 point or something (i forget the details and don't care at the moment, lol)
10:31 < bsm117532> Well, frankly, we should be hub-and-spoking geographic regions too.  There's no reason NYC can't reach consensus independently from Tokyo.  It's the timing of your cross chain atomic swaps that has to respect the network latency.
10:35 < andytoshi> there's a tradeoff when you're using hashpower for this because you don't want e.g. london's miners to be able to wreck up montreal's consensus by virtue of their larger economy
10:35 < andytoshi> and verifying location is veering into permissioned territory
10:38 < amiller> i want to make a blockchain protocol that combines proof-of-work with proof-of-proximity
10:38 < amiller> so that even if there's a lot of hashpower somewhere else, it doesn't necessarily risk overloading your nearby miners
10:39 < amiller> "if aliens from the Andromeda galaxy are going to hurt me, then I at least want them to have to come here first!" -- Scott Aaronson
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11:00 < bsm117532> amiller: I have thought a few times about using some form of group signature that requires different miners to cooperate -- as a means of measuring network latency or providing a "clock" to the network.  It seems easy for a subset of co-located signers to create a group signature faster than the rest of the network, but perhaps this could be used to dynamically partition network regions.
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11:35 < Eliel_> I've had this vague idea of a chain with transient mimblewimble "bubbles" that can be as local or global as the participants want them to be and can split and join with other bubbles if participants all agree.
11:36 < Eliel_> no idea if that's actually practical though
11:38 < bsm117532> Well with MW the split/join can be done by a 3rd party.  The problem is double-spends that occur in different bubbles.
11:39 < bsm117532> It's for this reason that I don't think my ideas about "braids" (DAG-chain) can be combined with MW.  In MW a single double-spend causes a fork, and poisons any other transactions coinjoin'ed with the double-spend.
11:39 < Eliel_> I was thinking the bubbles would be separated so that you wouldn't have to worry about other bubbles.
11:42 < bsm117532> Eliel_: don't know how you'd accomplish that...
11:42 < Eliel_> you'd need worldwide consensus for merges/splits of bubbles but inside the bubbles local consensus would be sufficient.
11:44 < bsm117532> That's the problem.  The "worldwide consensus" can be easily subverted by issuing a lot of double-spends at low cost.
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11:45 < Eliel_> what if the bubble merge/split consensus wasn't itself mimblewimble style? That would be limited only within the bubbles.
11:45 < bsm117532> Eliel_: My braid work can be described by a "merge" algorithm which combines multiple parents.  As long as you can write that algorithm you can jam it into a DAG structure.  But there's no way to "merge" two MW blocks that contain double-spends.  You have to fully discard one of them, and any "innocent" transactions not part of the double-spend would have to be re-mined.
11:45 < bsm117532> (and re-broadcast)
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11:49 < Eliel_> bsm117532: in other words, you need something that'd prevent a bubble from "forking"?
11:50 < bsm117532> Yes, and that requires de-anonymizing transactions, which is exactly opposite to MW.
11:50 < bsm117532> You have to identify the double-spend in order to algorithmically resolve it.
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11:55 < Eliel_> how does mimblewimble deal with that?
11:55 < bsm117532> By not being finished yet ;-)
11:55 < bsm117532> (actually I don't know)
11:56 < sipa> MW doesn't deal with anything like that
11:56 < sipa> MW makes it possible to do offline coinjoin; it's not a protocol for doing so
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11:57 < bsm117532> How does grin deal with that then?
11:57 < sipa> afaik, it does not intend to implement that
11:58 < sipa> (but i'm not very up to date)
12:03 < andytoshi> there is no protocol for unmerging things to correct double-spends, this is impossible
12:04 < andytoshi> grin does not have noninteractive coinjoin, it's expected that users will use valueshuffle or something
12:04 < andytoshi> which is more efficient anyway as it allows kernel merging
12:04 < andytoshi> (i mean, miners ultimately do a "noninteractive coinjoin" but it's not done in the p2p layer)
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13:51 < Taek> amiller: in theory you could segregate transactions into separate virtual chains
13:51 < Taek> you'd have a mars chain and an earth chain, for example
13:51 < Taek> all on the same global ledger
13:52 < Taek> then have it so that certain blocks only apply to certain jurisdictions
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13:52 < Taek> as long as you are transacting only within your jurisdiction, the block time is really fast
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13:52 < Taek> hmm
13:53 < Taek> and then if you wanted to jump jurisdictions, you'd have to go through one of the slower blocks
13:53 < Taek> I guess that doesn't actually solve the problem of Earth deciding to wreck the mars chain
13:53 < uiuc-slack> <amiller> that alone doesn't prevent a high-hashpower attacker from far away wreaking havoc on the small chains
13:53 < uiuc-slack> <amiller> yeah!
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13:54 < Taek> but it does provide at least one benefit over separate chains: you at least get the protection of the global chain at the global rate
13:54 < Taek> global -> intersteller or whatever
13:54 < Taek> so earth could wreck the mars chain, but the reorgs would be limited to 30 minutes deep or whatever
13:54 < Taek> which at least improves on earth being able to do a 2 week reorg just for fun b/c mars has no manufacturing
13:58 < Taek> I don't know if you can do better than that in a permissionless environment. A consensus system has to be verified outside of  time (or rather, at any point in the future), and you can't to proximity proofs at that point
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17:26 < gmaxwell> ::facepalm:: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1922460.0
17:28 < TD-Linux> the only real bitcoin addresses start with a 1
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17:41 < gmaxwell> TD-Linux: one of the BU guys was spouting some real singers that any bitcoin that had gone through segwit wasn't a bitcoin because the whitepaper defined "an electronic coin as a chain of digital signatures" and because with segwit the next transaction doesn't commit to the prior signature, a coin though segwit cannot be an electronic coin and thus not a Bitcoin. Q.E.D.
17:41 < TD-Linux> sounds ydtm tier
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20:11 < bsm1175321> Taek, amiller: it's best if geographic blobs cannot attack one another.  One way is if they use different PoW, but that's super costly. I don't know any trustless way to achieve proximity proofs.  Everything I can think of relies on trust in geographic location of a particular key.
20:12 < bsm1175321> So back to different PoW.  Mars-chain and Earth-chain achieve cross-chain atomic swaps, with timeouts related to the Earth-Mars distance.
20:16 < amiller> meh, don't give up on the proximity-infused PoW!
20:16 < amiller> why not require that the work has to include low-latency commitments to other work
20:16 < Taek> and transactions?
20:17 < bsm1175321> amiller: commitments to other work incentivize centralization and co-location.
20:18 < amiller> well look that's inherent to the goal right
20:18 < bsm1175321> So as to minimize the latency
20:18 < Taek> what if there's a way to bound it? Such that less than 3 seconds latency doesn't help at all, but more than 3 seconds becomes exponentially less workable
20:18 < bsm1175321> One big miner for Earth and Mars who can reverse my transactions if sufficiently bribed?  No...that's not the goal.
20:19 < amiller> i think you're making some quick assumption that you'd get more rewards for having this low latency
20:19 < bsm1175321> Taek: there's no way to measure the latency without another metric, such as assuming keys are geographically distributed.  So...I move all my keys to one datacenter.
20:19 < bsm1175321> amiller: That's why I described earlier using this as a timing measurement tool but not a reward.
20:19 < Taek> iirc amiller had a paper that showed some pow which had to be done with very low latency memory?
20:20 < Taek> which would suggest that controlling for latency by forcing some level of message passing might be achieveable
20:21 < Taek> and then you might be able to tune it so that there's an advantage if you can achieve low latency around transaction creators within your sphere
20:21 < Taek> but no real disadvatage outside of that
20:21 < Taek> basically the transaction builders paying fees would subsidize your mining, and the only way to collect those fees would be to do a lot of round trip communications with them
20:21 < Taek> something like that
20:22 < Taek> (yeah it's full of holes, just trying to find footholds for better ideas)
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