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11:09 < kanzure> there's no inclusion proof for a blockhash and a claimed transaction merkle root, right?
11:09 < kanzure> oh wait.
11:10 < kanzure> header hash, not block hash. confusing naming convention we got here :-).
11:10 < sipa> sure there is; it's called a block header :p
11:11 < kanzure> yes but why do we call it a blockhash instead of a block header hash.
11:11 < sipa> i just see the block header as the top-level structure of a block
11:14 < kanzure> if the transaction list was included in the header, in addition to its merkle root, then there would be a much stronger incentive to not hide transactions in gigabyte blocks  (because to evaluate the nonce/pow you would have to check the whole thing).
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11:18 < sipa> kanzure: https://sketch.io/render/sk-4af05d6e171a2b32ad01f6332f3fecc8.jpeg
11:18 < kanzure> i know.
11:19 < sipa> what do you mean by transaction list?
11:19 < kanzure> content committed to by hashMerkleRoot
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11:20 < sipa> i don't understand how that is different from the hashMerkleRoot
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11:22 < kanzure> there are some not-quite-SPV clients that seem to evaluate PoW strength of the block, and then accept the hashMerkleRoot, without knowing whether the block was received/accepted by a node that actually checked all the transactions. the minimum requirement to know that the transactions were checked is to have a proof like "to evaluate the PoW you need all the transaction data itself".
11:22 < kanzure> having the data is not a proof that they were checked/validated, of course. but it's a step in the right direction.
11:22 < sipa> ah, i see
11:22 < kanzure> having the data is, however, a requirement before even considering validation.
11:23 < sipa> that would undermine the advantage of using a merkle structure in the first place
11:23 < sipa> as the only advantage that gives you is the ability to prove inclusion of a specific entry without showing the whole thing
11:24 < kanzure> the value of PoW is anti-replay, only way to know is to have that actual data... if pow is being accepted without ensuring an anti-replay property, then acceptance is sorta broken.
11:24 < kanzure> (in full nodes, the anti-replay rule is checked of course.)
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11:27 < kanzure> is there a non-pseudoSPV use for that particular merkle root?
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12:05 < kanzure> with that sort of change, you could ensure that only clients with enough resources to verify PoW strength would also be clients with enough resources to verify that all spends are inserted only once.  or at least, the computational resources for that verification should be within the same order of magnitude as receiving(bandwidth) or hashing(time/computation) the data.
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