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05:04 < musalbas> #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic?
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05:07 < kanzure> it's a sidechain.
05:10 < musalbas> :-)
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07:43 < Taek> When it comes to using cryptocurrency for legitimate business purposes, speculators and whales are an externality.
07:43 < Taek> This is more visible in the altcoin world, where the dev teams will commonly withhold 20% or even 96% of the coins
07:44 < Taek> They hold that much with the intent of selling over time, extracting value for themselves at an unpredictable and uncontrolled rate, and unquestionably pulling value out of the network
07:44 < Taek> The same is true for every whale and speculator in Bitcoin, if you are holding Bitcoin because you intend to sell it at a higher price, you are externality for people who hold Bitcoin for its utility
07:45 < Taek> I think you can combat this by making the inflation rate of the coin equivalent to the fifth root of the difficulty
07:45 < Taek> err, the block reward equivalent to the fifth root of the difficulty
07:46 < Taek> If the currency goes from 5,000 people using it to 5,000,000,000 people using it, the inflation rate jumps by 16x
07:47 < Taek> This limits the ability of one person to be a whale in the ecosystem - you have to buy in over time to maintain the same ownership as the network grows
07:47 < Taek> At the same time, the inflation will only increase if the actual usage of the coin goes up, and the inflation will decrease if the usage of the coin drops
07:48 < Taek> so people who are holding it for utility don't actually see any penalty from this scheme - the inflation rate only increases if their asset value is also increasing
07:49 < Taek> Honestly, I would like to see it be the square root instead of the fifth root, but Moore's law made that less ideal. If we assume computational power doubles every 18 months, an inflation rate that is the square of the difficulty means the block reward doubles every 36 months
07:49 < Taek> And that just seems like too much natural inflation
07:50 < smk> wrong venue friend
07:51 < Taek> > This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies
07:52 < Taek> Given that I don't know of any project with this type of inflation schedule, I'd say we are comfortably in theoretical territory
07:54 < andytoshi> smk: generally block parameters are -wizards territory (if there is some reasoning behind them and they haven't been beaten to death already, neither of which seem to be the case here)
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08:39 < Eliel> Taek: it's an intriguing idea, but I wonder about the premise itself. Would the use value alone be enough to create the critical mass needed for the system to really take off?
08:40 < Taek> Potentially not, cryptocurrency definitely wouldn't be in the spotlight right now on utility alone. It's popular because people are making hundreds of millions
08:40 < Taek> I realized another issue: this scheme, even without moore's law and without growth, means your inflation rate would be 10% at the 10 year mark
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08:41 < Taek> which is already huge. So I'm thinking it should be thought through some more, with consideration of the total difficulty or something
08:41 < Taek> Really you only want to be spending a few % per year on PoW I think
08:42 < Taek> maybe 2-4%
08:42 < Eliel> Also, there was some coin that made a lot of noise years back that actually did something similar in tying the block reward to difficulty. Although I forget the actual function.
08:42 < Eliel> I can't recall the name though.
08:43 < Eliel> Ah, solidcoin it was
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09:56 < bsm117532> If block reward is proportional to difficulty, it makes "merging" of alternate histories easier (given some merging conflict resolution rule) because you don't have to re-jigger block rewards in the merge.
10:00 < Eliel> Might it actually create an incentive to recreate the history just for the blockrewards since you can now make the blocks with bigger rewards than before?
10:02 < bsm117532> Yes, but maybe it doesn't really matter.  You could apply the same hashpower to win the same coins in a new block instead.  The only reason to screw with old blocks if is you can game the merging algorithm.
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10:32 < Guest86699> good grief
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12:25 < kanzure> ignotus: would some kind of canonicalization/normalization prevent the output malleability that you're speaking about? or would it not be possible to set a rule about how to detect whether a mutant was the one committed to?
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13:31 < theflow-> hi can we talk about dynamic block sizes in here since this isnt #bitcoin
13:31 < theflow-> This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies
13:32 < theflow-> right in the topic!
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13:33 < cluelessperson> ban theflow-, he's jumping between channels to spam.
13:33 < theflow-> how is it off topic
13:33 < theflow-> please lets have a rational convo about
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13:36 < cluelessperson> theflow-: it's only a matter of time until I find your real identity.  The more you rejoin, the more I learn about you.
13:36 < theflow-> i dont care if you do, what are you going to do, sue me?
13:38 < theflow-> the only reason i dont use my real identity-which i did -- is because you banned me
13:38 < cluelessperson> theflow-: You might want to make sure you have a lawyer ready.
13:38 < theflow-> i used my real one, i have nothing to hide
13:38 < theflow-> ok im scared
13:38 < theflow-> again either do something or shutup but your threats have 0 effect except to escalate.
13:39 < cluelessperson> theflow-: >30 recorded and provable interstate felonies, with irrefutable evidence.
13:39 < theflow-> OK
13:39 < theflow-> send in the feds
13:39 < cluelessperson> theflow-: You think I'm joking, but some of the people you've spammed have been on military networks.  They don't play with that shit.
13:40 < theflow-> send in the feds
13:40 < theflow-> im obviously very scared.
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17:55 < Peter_R_Rizun> Craig Wright is driving me crazy.  He claims to have proved that selfish mining is a fallacy but his paper seems like gibberish mixed with errors to me.
17:58 < Peter_R_Rizun> A bunch of people think he might have something, so I'm going through it in detail to find out.  Here's my critique of his first somewhat "technical" section, if anyone is interested:
17:58 < Peter_R_Rizun> https://bitco.in/forum/threads/wright-or-wrong-lets-read-craig-wrights-selfish-miner-fallacy-paper-together-and-find-out.2426/#post-41700
17:58 < Peter_R_Rizun> I don't think he even understand what it means for Bitcoin mining to be memoryless.
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18:03 < midnightmagic> Peter_R_Rizun: You have been banned from here on at least five occasions now; initially you pretended that since you could avoid the bans, you didn't know they were there. I informed you *on multiple occasions* that you are banned from here. What are you doing in here now?
18:03 -!- Murch [~murch@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.]
18:03 < midnightmagic> Peter_R_Rizun: You **ACKNOWLEDGED** that you read my comments to you about it on Reddit by responding to me there. You have no excuse.
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18:04 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.86.172.170] by midnightmagic
18:09 <@midnightmagic> Additionally, I would like to warn people NOT to visit bitco.in without a good VPN, even though they actively ban VPN. Whoever runs that site uses IP addresses of visitors as weapons against people, including people in here. They have banned archival sites, VPN, and all Tor exit nodes, and have been actively doing so from beginning, even though I have proof that when Bloomie announced it
18:09 <@midnightmagic> here in IRC, he claimed he didn't know at the time Tor was blocked.
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18:11 < P3t3r__R> Many people here let me know that you have no authority, are Greg Maxwell’s wife, and that they appreciate my participation.  We don’t like walking on grEggshells.
18:11 < P3t3r__R> I think it's you everyone wants gone.
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18:12 < mryandao> P3t3r__R: this is an inappropriate place for this.
18:12 < P3t3r__R> Anyways, you're off topic.
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18:12 < P3t3r__R> I'm discussing selfish mining theory.
18:13 < mryandao> where's the discussion? you're just attacking CSW and gmaxwell afaik
18:13 < P3t3r__R> Craig wrote a paper claiming to debunk Eyal and Sirer's work.
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 27 00:00:32 2017