--- Log opened Mon Oct 02 00:00:34 2017 00:01 < CryptAxe> maaku agreed, but I'm not familiar with any method that wouldn't require a soft fork of some kind. So an opcode that could handle replay protection, and provide other features seems interesting 00:14 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-177-075-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-178-159-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47 -!- rusty1 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:54 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@92.154.68.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-umjuqozdsrqxsbkh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:23 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- rusty1 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:35 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@188.94.18.118] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:46 -!- 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has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:07 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:23 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:24 -!- wraithm [~wraithm@unaffiliated/wraithm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:43 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- onabreak [55e4c13c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.228.193.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10 < uiuc-slack1> https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/963 08:10 < uiuc-slack1> Non-interactive proofs of proof-of-work 08:13 -!- jtimon [~quassel@199.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:26 < kanzure> win3 08:26 < kanzure> aaaaaa 08:28 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:29 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@static-100-38-216-231.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:38 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pcgmqgvhytrjwgku] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@188.94.18.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:07 -!- Murch [~murch@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:18 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has 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I'm not familiar with all the terminology in the paper and it helps to see the end result 12:09 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:09 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:11 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:12 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:14 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:15 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:21 < Chris_Stewart_5> amiller: look forward to reading! 12:27 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:28 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:31 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:31 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:32 < maaku> clear as mud. 12:33 < maaku> amiller: the diagrams in the paper show regularly spaced skip links, but this should be probabilistic, right? 12:34 < uiuc-slack1> yes they're probabilistic, the diagrams just show an average case 12:34 < maaku> layer 2 points back to the last 2x (but not >=4x) lucky block, which is not necessarily every other block 12:34 < maaku> ok gotcha 12:35 < maaku> wait actully was what I said correct? would a layer 2 point to, say, a 8x lucky block if that was the most recent >2x block? 12:36 < maaku> or rather does that matter? 12:42 < maaku> section 3.2 isn't clear on that 12:45 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:17 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 13:18 < maaku> amiller: If I am reading section 5 correctly, it is possible for an attacker with <50% hashpower starting from a superblock to create a chain from which a succinct proof can be extracted that is "more work" than the honest chain 13:18 < maaku> with >50% probability. 13:19 < maaku> it would be very interesting to have numbers for what minimum hash power is required for these attacks to be reasonable 13:33 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:51 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:52 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:57 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:01 -!- dionyziz [~dionyziz@li1388-195.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zjtstcuwryikdaxm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 < dionyziz> maaku: You're reading section 5 right. But the proof has very loose bounds, because the aim was just to show that the probability is non-negligible. 14:03 < dionyziz> The attack has been weakened to make the analysis easier. 14:04 < dionyziz> e.g. the fixed constant r is really stupid from the adversary's point of view 14:04 < dionyziz> Normally a clever adversary would try the supression attack and wait until either the honest parties get a block or the adversary gets two. 14:04 < dionyziz> And then stop. 14:04 < dionyziz> So the analysis works out with a fixed r, but it's not an ideal situation for the adversary. 14:05 < dionyziz> I'd like to also get some estimates on the computational power required for the adversary to be able to make these attacks. 14:05 < dionyziz> I think one way to do it is through running some monte carlo simulations (akin to kls-attack/simulate.cpp) 14:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:11 < CryptAxe> maaku it seems that the bitcoin cash replay protection has to be built in to the fork that we don't want our transactions replayed on? 14:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:12 < sipa> CryptAxe: any sane fork would do that 14:12 < CryptAxe> Yeah, I wouldn't expect them to be sane though. 14:12 < CryptAxe> Luke's seems to work for any fork regardless of sanity, or maybe I'm confused 14:13 < CryptAxe> bip 115 14:14 < sipa> right, it would require pretty crazy trickery to subvert it 14:14 < sipa> but it's not impossible 14:14 < CryptAxe> To me it seems a lot better for Bitcoin to have replay protection, than to expect forks to be nice to us. 14:14 < CryptAxe> Already I think you can see that people aren't interested in playing nice 14:15 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15 < CryptAxe> So 115 seems like a good idea to me, the bitcoin cash method also works of course but I wouldn't want to rely on them doing anything 14:16 < sipa> CryptAxe: bitcoin has very good replay protection; it's what it's designed to solve (double spending) 14:16 < sipa> forking without changing the genesis block or validity rules is intentionally subverting that protection 14:16 < CryptAxe> What about this kind though? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0115.mediawiki#replay-protection-in-the-event-of-a-persistent-blockchain-split 14:16 < CryptAxe> true 14:17 < sipa> anf if that is the goal, anything can be subverted in a hard fork 14:17 < sipa> it can only be made harder 14:18 < sipa> for starters, they can choose to just not implement the checkblockhash opcode... resulting in at best one-way protection 14:18 < esotericnonsense> i can't see that it is possible to implement two-way replay protection without cooperation. 14:19 < CryptAxe> That's a good point, one way protection does seem to be all that Bitcoin can do 14:19 < esotericnonsense> if you had a magical box that would allow you to scrap ECDSA tomorrow and started using a different signature scheme entirely, the other fork can just copy it and allow those transactions. 14:19 < CryptAxe> So I guess it can't actually be solved completely in the way I'm thinking 14:19 < esotericnonsense> if you have a magic p2sh box the other fork can decide to hardcode it in, etc. 14:20 < CryptAxe> yeah... :\ darn 14:20 < CryptAxe> I guess it doesn't really matter what some weird fork wants to do 14:20 < CryptAxe> anyone can make an altcoin at any time 14:21 < esotericnonsense> consider the simplest, most ridiculous hard fork case, which just hardcodes in a single invalid block 14:24 < CryptAxe> "some mechanism is desired by which the UTXOs valid in either chain may be spent without the transaction being validly replayable on the other chain." I guess that isn't possible either, given that the other chain determines what is valid to themselves 14:24 < esotericnonsense> yes, that's the key 14:33 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36 < maaku> CryptAxe: you can't protect against another chain choosing to treat bitcoin transactions as valid. 14:39 < CryptAxe> maaku I understand your criticism now, agreed 14:43 -!- koshii [~w@c-71-228-54-149.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53 -!- wraithm [~wraithm@unaffiliated/wraithm] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:53 < andytoshi> "replay protection" is something of a misnomer, what's really under consideration is whether the alternate system should require users produce and publish unrelated valid bitcoin transactions 14:53 < andytoshi> this will obviously cause confusion and loss of funds, but unfortunately it's also obviously impossible for bitcoin to prevent other software from working this way 14:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:56 < gmaxwell> you cannot prevent someone from building a system which maliciously allows updates for another system to effect it and vice versa, unfortunately. (except by keeping your system secret). 14:56 < CryptAxe> "keeping your system secret" ahh the nxt approach 14:57 < CryptAxe> security via hiding behind curtains 14:59 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02 -!- koshii [~w@c-71-228-54-149.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:06 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:20 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 15:31 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:37 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:40 -!- smk 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