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20:20 < sipa> my belief was that the 3-bit-per-inner-node approach is 2 bits less 20:24 < maaku> it is precisely 2 bits less. but I need those two bits to encode the 0-element tree, and the two versions of the 1-element tree (skip hash or include) 20:24 < sipa> right 20:25 < sipa> but under the assumption that any explored tree has at least 1 relevant element, that is not needed :) 20:25 < sipa> (because the only case with no inner nodes corresponds to the situation where the root is an element) 20:25 < sipa> would you like me to do a write-up on the 3-bit inner node idea, or are you working on one? 20:30 < maaku> I've eeked out a bit more compression from the verifier's perspective by dropping the self-segminting requirement, prefixing the max height, etc. But it's really just a few bits less (~height of tree). i imagine analogous optimizations exist for the 3-bit encoding 20:33 < maaku> sipa: I have ideas for one (beyond the naive one I already implemented). I conceptually like the verifier's perspective on the principle that proofs should be optimally simple to verify. 20:34 < sipa> i can write a logspace verifier for the 3-bit structure 20:34 < maaku> But the fixed width of the 3-bit code lends itself to a fast table implementation with no bit fidling, and merging or splitting proofs is as simple as splicing in the right locations. 20:35 < maaku> So I think I'm going to stop micro-optimizing and just go with that, 3-bit code with no extra optimizations. 20:50 < maaku> Storing the max height lets you drop to half the bits on the bottom nodes of the tree, great for balanced trees. But this mucks with fast table decodes, and considering we're only saving <<1.5 bits per 512 bits of hashes ... kinda not worth it 20:52 < maaku> sipa: I'll take a stab at it. A log-space, single pass implementation seems pretty straight forward 20:54 < sipa> cool 20:55 < maaku> Actually something I could use advice with, if you have any is which codepoints to assign to which node configurations. If chosen wisely, string sorting by binary representation could accomplish something useful 20:56 < maaku> I don't know what 'useful' is. What does it mean to relationally compare two Merkle inclusion proofs? 20:57 < sipa> i would say, innernode=0, relevant element=1, hash=2 20:57 < sipa> and then encode left_style*3 + right_style 20:57 < sipa> very easy to decode 20:59 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1080:a598:ed36:4763:cac8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:59 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:59 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:59 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1080:a598:ed36:4763:cac8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:fc49:7b11:4600:1a48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:00 < sipa> (and as left_style and right_style can't be both 'hash', 8 is impossible) 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:01 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:06 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:09 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:21 < maaku> For sure. That's what I did in may naive implementation. I guess I'm wondering if there are algorithmic reasons you might sort a container of trees, where the ordering is meaningful. 21:21 < maaku> And if so, what those requirements are. (why should a inner node sort before a hash, and why the inclusion before the skipped hash?) 21:23 < maaku> Other than that making decoding simple since code=8 is impossible 21:24 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:25 < sipa> well is there.even a meaningful ordering for proofs with a real-world use? 21:25 < maaku> Well I think that's my question :P 21:27 < sipa> okay, right 21:27 < sipa> i guess my answer is no, then 21:27 -!- anon616 [anon616@gateway/shell/sameroom/x-jaaqofjdyhuultzc] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 21:28 -!- anon616 [anon616@gateway/shell/sameroom/x-jaaqofjdyhuultzc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:28 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:28 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:30 < maaku> An ordering, any ordering is useful, just to support std::set, obviously. 21:32 < maaku> And if you further require the items to be ordered left-to-right in the fully expanded tree, then switching to (DESCEND, SKIP, INCLUDE) would mean that lexigraphical comparison of proof strings would be equivalent to lexigraphical comparison of the list of elements extracted against those of other subtrees 21:32 < maaku> That's the best I've come up with 21:33 < maaku> That would make SKIP,SKIP = 5 though, but that can be worked around 21:36 -!- coinsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:37 -!- packetsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42 < sipa> still easy to decode 21:42 < sipa> left = (code - (code > 4)) / 3 21:42 < sipa> right = (code - (code > 4)) % 3 21:43 < sipa> or a table 21:45 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind] 21:51 -!- rusty1 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:56 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:fc49:7b11:4600:1a48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@129.180.75.159] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:02 < sipa> or some branches: if (code < 5) { if (code < 3) left=DESCEND; else left=SKIP; } else { left=INCLUDE; } 22:09 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1019:42b6:cda2:816d:dc7b:514a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1019:42b6:cda2:816d:dc7b:514a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:10 -!- rusty1 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:14 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:41 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@129.180.75.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@199.178.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:44 -!- rmwb_ [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:fc49:7b11:4600:1a48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:48 -!- DrOlmer [~DrOlmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@199.178.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48 -!- DrOlmer [~DrOlmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:35 -!- rmwb_ [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:fc49:7b11:4600:1a48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:54 < maaku> sipa: Oh I'm going to try to do the whole thing as a table, reading a byte at a time 23:55 < maaku> Three tables actually, since alignment with the start of a byte repeats every 24 bits 23:55 < sipa> maaku: that seems orthogonal 23:56 < sipa> you can read a byte at a time, but still interpret the values using arithmetic 23:57 < sipa> maaku: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/utilstrencodings.h#L152L174 <- generic power-of-2 base converter 23:58 < sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bech32/blob/master/ref/python/segwit_addr.py#L80L100 <- python version --- Log closed Tue Oct 10 00:00:42 2017