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04:47 < waxwing> made a blog about non-interactive coinjoin idea https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/snicker ; one issue that cropped up is, how can one avoid the spam problem of people submitting ~ \infty junk encrypted coinjoin proposals; given that the whole point is to keep submission and receipt anonymous, is there anything better than a hashcash approach? and i'm not claiming that a hashcash approach even really works, just not sure.
04:47 < waxwing> maybe there is some crypto idea i'm not considering.
04:54 < andytoshi> if it's just anti-DoS a trusted setup is probably fine, you could SNARK that you own some output
04:56 < waxwing> ah. like, if you accept trusted setup snark is fairly easy here, you're saying?
04:56 < waxwing> i mean, maybe it is for you :)
04:58 < andytoshi> there are also trusted-setup ringsigs that are small but they're not really usable on bitcoin where EC keys aren't exposed for the most part (and i think they all need pairings and won't work on secp)
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04:59 < andytoshi> you could try just using libsnark or something, maybe "i own a bitcoin output with this key image" is too complicated to prove quickly with off-the-shelf software
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10:33 < jb55> how long can the mining arms race continue until all mines reach maximum energy capacity of their local region? won't that centralize mining even further? or is that far off...
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10:34  * jb55 pictures future scenario where the mine buys a whole nuclear plant to feed it energy
10:35 < jb55> or maybe that would cause innovation in new forms of energy or efficient chips... hmm
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13:09 < prestwich> is there anything written about expiring transactions? I've seen a few people saying it's a bad idea, but no in-depth reasoning
13:10 < sipa> bitcoin core expires transactions now after a few days
13:10 < sipa> but nothing prevents anyone from rebroadcasting
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13:10 < prestwich> more like the opposite of a time lock. transaction becomes invalid after a set time
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13:13 < prestwich> something like CLTV but for expiration would be a very useful tool. children wouldn't be safe if a large reorg happens, but that seems like it could be addressed?
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13:18 < maaku> prestwich: addressed how?
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13:19 < maaku> that's precisely the problem. a transaction chain could be invalidated in a reorg of any length, *without even requiring a double-spend or malicious intent*
13:20 < maaku> it would make bitcoins less fungible
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13:21 < maaku> as a hamfisted fix you could make the outputs have a 100 block maturity requirement, which (1) eliminates many of the useful things you might want to do with an expiry, and -
13:22 < maaku> (2) isn't the same anyway because you can still get unintentional invalidations on a long-reorg (whereas invalidations on a >100 block reorg because of coinbase mixing has to be intentional as it requires resigning a new transaction, not the old one just becoming invalid all of a sudden)
13:23 < maaku> prestwich: also, whatever you want to do could probably be done off-chain with lightning like state invalidations
13:23 < prestwich> addressed by designing the uses around the limitation, for example. even long maturity requirements don't rule out useful cases.
13:24 < maaku> prestwich: long materity requirements are *not* the same, as I noted
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13:26 < maaku> right now for a transaction to become forever invalid on a reorg requires *active* resigning of one of the inputs. you can point to a conflicting transaction and blame the people responsible for it.
13:27 < maaku> but if there's a reorg that invalidates a transaction simply because the tx wasn't included yet and has now expired on the new chain tip? whos fault is that?
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13:33 < prestwich> let me check understanding: if you find yourself in a network segment with lower blockheight, and lower accumulated difficulty, than another segment, expirations can invalidate many transactions in case of a reorg. Even if, subjectively, they have many confirmations.
13:33 < prestwich> Is that right?
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13:48 < blablablaalb> No right ?
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13:54 < sipa> prestwich: not segments
13:55 < sipa> just a reorganization from one chain to another
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13:57 < prestwich> i think i meant partition rather than segment. what other causes of long reorgs are there? very expensive attacks?
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14:24 < maaku> you see multi-block reorgs fairly frequently. if people selfish-mined you'd see them even more frequently
14:27 < prestwich> for reorgs longer than say 5, I think the main causes would be attacks, segmentation, and consensus bugs (e.g. March 2013). Any that I'm missing?
14:28 < prestwich> is there a quick way to check how often normal multi-block reorgs happen? bc.i lists orphans, but the interface is terrible.
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14:29 < Emcy> >Coincidence that this year is the 100th anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution? I think not. Naturally this dynamic transcends crypto but the "political" phenomenon is noteworthy to say the least.
14:30 < Emcy> so the 'fuck the fee market, free txns for all according to his need' guys are insinuating the other guys are the commies
14:30 < Emcy> i dont know whos trolling whom anymore
14:36 < Emcy> why have they starting saying bcash is 'turing complete'
14:36 < prestwich> the profile for selfish mining would be reorgs from height n to height n+1 often, right? but not reorgs to height n+5.
14:36 < Emcy> did the re-enable all of the scripts
14:36 < Emcy> shit, this is the wrong chan
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14:43 < maaku> prestwich: not necessarily, no, but even n+1 is no less problematic
14:43 < maaku> if the tx expires at the next block
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14:47 < prestwich> maaku: yes, defintely. that's something that reasonable maturity requirements would help. but they definitely don't fix the whole problem
14:51 < prestwich> I think that for my use case, I'd be comfortable with the reorg risk. I'm already relying on long reorgs being very rare in other parts of the system.
14:54 < sipa> prestwich: it's not about you being fine with reorg risk
14:54 < sipa> it's about exposing everyone you're paying to that risk
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14:58 < prestwich> sipa: restated: I think the risk can be parameterized, planned for, and communicated to the parties involved.
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15:15 < sipa> prestwich: yes, but it's giving them a significant burden
15:16 < sipa> they'd need to do pretty xonplicated analysis to determine the risk of any dependencies crossing into their invalid range
15:16 < sipa> the design of the whole system is easier for everyone by forcing all coins to have nearly the same risk
15:17 < sipa> in particular, for SPV clients it's not possible at all to do that analysis
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15:22 < prestwich> yes, this is not a risk that most people are qualified to understand and deal with
15:22 < prestwich> I really appreciate you taking the time to teach me about it :)
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15:28 < prestwich> what I have in mind is long-term (several month) cross-chain transactions between _very_ sophisticated parties. some structures are only possible with an opcode expiry time, as far as I can tell
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15:31 < sipa> you can always simulate it by having a presigned locktimed transaction that undoes
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16:05 < prestwich> sipa: ah, I thought about that a bit. I'd prefer that, but can't find a way that doesn't either break either atomicity or real-world contract expectations
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18:59 < maaku> prestwich: I think you're still missing the point -- it's not the parties involved that take on risk, but potentially the entire ecosystem
19:00 < maaku> because the cointer-party then coinjoins with someone else, and they pay others, and in a couple of hops it's affecting people totally unrelated to the original expired transaction
19:00 < maaku> and that is how you destroy fungibility
19:01 < maaku> on the other hand, you can do exactly what you want via sequences of off-chain transactions with ordinary relative lock-time
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19:13 < esotericnonsense> "right now for a transaction to become forever invalid on a reorg requires *active* resigning of one of the inputs. you can point to a conflicting transaction and blame the people responsible for it."
19:14 < esotericnonsense> i'm not so sure about 'blame'. you can possibly have vision on it. for example if an RBF transaction has its' recipients changed perfectly reasonably but then it reverts to the older one through a reorg (no fault of the original signer).
19:18 < esotericnonsense> i guess this is just 'blame' in the 'git blame' sense rather than finding fault. :)
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20:40 < maaku> yes, like `git blame`
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21:11 < maaku> hmm... possibly useful opcode for deligation: CHECKSIGWITHDATA, which would be used like this: [z y x 3 sig pubkey] where the data elements are hashed together, and that hash is combined with the sighash
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21:12 < maaku> that would let you delegate with a multi-level tail call eval
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 28 00:00:59 2017