--- Log opened Thu Nov 16 00:00:16 2017
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04:57 < munchee> do wingardia leviosum work on bitcoin price
05:01 < munchee> perhaps cause of recent gains
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06:06 < grexeter> ;;tall
06:06 < gribble> Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7416.4, vol: 16177.37 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 7401.01, vol: 4088.78 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7396.8, vol: 61400.94 | GDAX BTCUSD last: 7420.01, vol: 23421.39 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7420.0, vol: 8280.87 | Gemini BTCUSD last: 7428.66, vol: 6457.51 | Volume-weighted last average: 7407.45
06:07 < grexeter> if you think about it, how does scaling bitcoin by not scaling bitcoin at all (lightning) make sense?   they need to use their own network and nodes, to scale bitcoin?
06:07 < grexeter> that doesnt even seem like scaling bitcoin.   that seems like diverting bitcoin to a 2nd network
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06:23 < mlz> !ops grexeter spamming
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06:25 < grexeter> wait what?
06:26 < grexeter> ;;ticker
06:26 < gribble> Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 7430.04, Best ask: 7439.96, Bid-ask spread: 9.92000, Last trade: 7430.03, 24 hour volume: 15719.38913503, 24 hour low: 7089.0, 24 hour high: 7538.0, 24 hour vwap: 7300.31
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06:27 < Taek> grexeter: wrong channel. For casual discussion, #bitcoin
06:28 < grexeter> nah im good here, im a wizard
06:29 < grexeter> why cant we talk amongst wizards about scaling bitcoin, by not scaling bitcoin at all?
06:36 < grexeter> Taek: do you have anything meaningful to add to our convo, or are you just a door greeter good at redirecting people?
06:46 < andytoshi> grexeter: please take this elsewhere
06:46 < grexeter> if you dont like it, take yourself elsewhere and mind your own biz dicknoz
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07:11 < nsh> andytoshi, when are you coming to the UK?
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07:15 < surlyray> ;;sl "Andrew Poelstra bitcoin"
07:15 < gribble> https://www.weusecoins.com/andrew-poelstra/ | Andrew Poelstra is a Mathematician at Blockstream. ... He became involved in Bitcoin in late 2011, and joined Blockstream cofounders Greg Maxwell and Pieter ...
07:16 < surlyray> ;;sl "Andrew Poelstra bitcoin BS mathematician"
07:16 < gribble> https://medium.com/%40adam_selene/andrew-poelstra-bs-mathematician-f9b2f463914c | May 8, 2017 ... When it comes to development of the Bitcoin protocol and related technology, ... Blockstream's resident mathematician, Andrew Poelstra, at a…
07:17 <@andytoshi> :rolleyes:
07:17 < surlyray> quit blocking non blockstreamers from speaking honestly
07:17 <@andytoshi> earlygrey: don't be daft, coming onto a research channel and insulting regulars is not "speaking honestly"
07:17 < surlyray> its honest if its my feelings
07:18 < surlyray> you can inslut me all day all you want
07:18 < wumpus> feeeelings
07:18 < surlyray> i dont get upset if you're honest and its how you feel
07:18 <@andytoshi> nsh: not sure, i've got a lot of travel in the new year, maybe i'll be able to fit it it
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07:19  * nsh nods
07:20 < nsh> let me know if you do :)
07:20 <@andytoshi> if you're able to travel to europe, i'll be in milan at some point in february. will do :)
07:20 < nsh> unlikely, but many things are possible
07:26 < surlyray> andytoshi: now that we've got the formalities out of the way, can we discuss our difference, or, you are just resolved to ban and pretend my opinion is fake?
07:29 < nsh> surlyray, be civil and on-topic please
07:30 < surlyray> nsh, im trying my best to be patient -- please realize that isnt one of the things i was blessed with in this world -- but, how is discussing scaling bitcoin not ON TOPIC when thereis a war going on about scaling?
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07:32 <@andytoshi> i have set the channel to +q ~a, which from https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration should make all non-registered users +q. so fyi you have to auth to talk now
07:32 < kanzure> we should prolly remove that at some point
07:33 < kanzure> but not right now
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08:59 < lewis3127> hi, im confused, is this channel #blockstream-wussards  or #bitcoin-wizards
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09:09 < kanzure> is this your "war"? confusing irc channels and wasting my time?
09:17 < lewis3127> no, the war hasn't started yet.  we're just picking the targets
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09:32 < lewis3127> andytoshi: i see this is the only channel you're left in now -- this all you got?  defend it bro!!
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09:44 < Chris_Stewart_5> lol
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10:03 < nsh> it would be nice to arrange some kinda reading group [e.g. google hangouts] for the bulletproofs paper and dependencies
10:03 < nsh> (or webinar i guess is what the awful people call these things)
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10:04 < waxwing> nsh, this may be helpful: https://github.com/bbuenz/BulletProofLib
10:04 < nsh> ty
10:05 < waxwing> i just saw someone link it earlier, no idea its status, but since it's the author, it's probably at least useful for investigation :)
10:05  * nsh wonders if Bünz or Bootle might consider committing an hour or so to unbefuddling their innovations for the masses [that is a slightly larger group of non-masses nerds] 
10:05  * nsh nods
10:06 < nsh> eeep, but for the grace of -wizards this whole thing would end up implemented in bouncycastle in java
10:07 < waxwing> one venusian day perhaps nsh
10:07 < waxwing> i mean, hour
10:07 < nsh> :)
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10:10 < nsh> i just want to grok the kernel of the advance, which seems to be this inner product argument of pederson multicommitments, but i may be missing sufficient understanding of sigma protocols
10:11  * nsh works through [BCC+16] - https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/263.pdf
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10:12 < nsh> nor do i recall understanding Groth's technique so probably need to read this too: http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/J.Groth/NIZKJournal.pdf
10:13 < waxwing> nsh, yes i sort of had that idea, and worked through the inner product argument, understood it, but only mechanically. but then i read the range proof that comes after ... gulp ...
10:13  * nsh nods, definitely the toggle is set to "MORE MAGIC" here :)
10:14 < waxwing> the inner product 'improved' version in the new paper certainly seems easier to grok, more boiled down, than the version in the original bootle 16 paper. (see the diagonals thing)
10:14 < nsh> ah ok
10:16 < nsh> (Groth paper cited is actually '09 - http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/J.Groth/MatrixZK.pdf )
10:17 < waxwing> thx hadn't got round to looking that one up yet
10:17 <@andytoshi> i don't think it's necessary to understand groth to understand bulletproofs, though i'm sure it wouldn't hurt
10:18 <@andytoshi> i don't think there's a clean intuition for the rangeproof, it seems like there were a lot of forced moves regarding where to put blinding factors and hash challenges, and the result just wound up looking that way
10:21 <@andytoshi> but the inner product argument is pretty elegant, essentially observe that if you have commitments A, B to (a, b), take a challenge x = H(A, B), and commit to ax + bx^-1 in a verifiable way, you're unable to do this except in the honest fashion
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10:22 <@andytoshi> then if you have a dot product of vectors <a1, a2> and <b1, b2> consider the vectors of half size of hte form <a1x + a2x^-1> and <b1x + b2x^-1> .... the dot product of the first vectors is D = a1b1 + a2b2 .. the dot product of the second is D + a1b2 x^2 + a2b1 x^-2
10:22 <@andytoshi> so the dot product is preserved and offset by these ugly cross-terms
10:23 < waxwing> yes i was just mulling over today the significance of the extra cross terms; it's not like they don't depend on a, b
10:23 <@andytoshi> so in the inner product argument, the size of the vectors is repeatedly halfed, the L and R commitments compensate for the cross-terms that appear, and the challenges x are hashes of the L's and R's, which prevents cheating
10:23 < waxwing> that would be a nice "bullet point" if they didn't :)
10:23 <@andytoshi> yeah, the inner-product argument is not zero-knowledge at all, it's ok to have dependence on the input
10:24 <@andytoshi> i don't think this is really expanded, they assume you're familiar with the bootle 16 paper and think of the new argument as basically a tweak of that ... but the bootle16 paper is much more general and it's harder to see the forest for the trees there
10:30 < waxwing> the ax + bx^-1 seems not to be arbitrary i guess, if you have only one challenge value x, you need the cancellation between the two vectors, so you need an inverse, so i guess nothing other than (x, x^-1) makes sense?
10:31 <@andytoshi> yeah, that's where i landed after spending a long time trying to make the scalar inverse go away
10:31 < waxwing> heh
10:31 < waxwing> i don't have the petty concerns of "how the hell am i going to code this so it doesn't take 5 hours to run"
10:32 <@andytoshi> lol
10:32 <@andytoshi> well, peterdettmann found a way to compute every necessary scalar with one multiplication per, plus a log-many multiplies and a single inversion
10:33 <@andytoshi> so in the end it's not a big deal to have the inverse, but i still spent a while exploring the design space
10:34 < waxwing> cool
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10:40 < waxwing> so hang on, if you like unrolled the recursion for the dot product itself, do you end up getting basically all the cross terms, sum( a_i * b_j) multiplied by (x^2 + x^-2) or something?
10:41 <@andytoshi> yup
10:41 < nsh> hence it's one mega multiexponentiation in the curve, which is nice for parallelisability
10:41 < nsh> iiuc
10:41 <@andytoshi> yep, during verification at least
10:41  * nsh nods
10:41 <@andytoshi> during proving, the cross-terms depend on previous cross-terms so you have to do them in order
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10:42 < sipa> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/2582071/32731185-12c0f108-c881-11e7-83c7-c2432b5fadf5.png
10:42 < sipa> ^ multiexp speedup
10:42 < waxwing> ah but it's a bit weirder eh, because a_i * b_j at one level is actually a_i' * b_j' so not so simple i think
10:43 <@andytoshi> waxwing: yes, but that weirdness is hidden in the L's and R's, which are complicated for the prover to compute, but the verifier just takes them as opaque points
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10:44 < nsh> 'His construction relied on the PCP theorem though, and did not yield a practical scheme'  # interesting phrasing... is the PCP theorem by itself non-constructive or something?
10:44 < nsh> or just naively results in hugecrufts
10:45 < waxwing> am i the only one who finds talk of 'multi-exponentiation' weird because only came to this via ECC stuff? (it really is scalar mults, isn't it?)
10:45 <@andytoshi> i haven't read it, but my understanding is that it's constructive but just huge
10:46 <@andytoshi> waxwing: yeah, sorry, it's because academics use "exponentiation" to mean scalar mults
10:46 <@andytoshi> it's just a notational difference, xG vs g^x, it comes from historically cryptosystems using multiplicative groups
10:47 < waxwing> sure i get it. i guess there isn't a problem since it's not like it can mean anything else here.
10:47 < sipa> advantage of exponential notation is that it's clear what is a scalar and what is a point
10:48 < sipa> disadvantage of exponential notation is that scalar formulas translated from scalar to point domain look vastly different, despite being ismorphic
10:48 < waxwing> biggest disadvantage of exp notation: i can't read the paper without squinting :)
10:49 < sipa> actually, the biggest advantage of exp notation is that the result look far more mathy
10:50 < waxwing> yeah it's super-cool doing x^x^x^... in LaTex
10:50 < Alanius> I'm sometimes tempted to switch to the triangle of power
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10:51 < sipa> tetration?
10:51 < nsh> .wik Tetration
10:51 < yoleaux> "In mathematics, tetration (or hyper-4) is the next hyperoperation after exponentiation, and is defined as iterated exponentiation. The word was coined by Reuben Louis Goodstein, from tetra- (four) and iteration. Tetration is used for the notation of very large numbers." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration
10:51 < Alanius> no; this stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sULa9Lc4pck
10:53 < nsh> heh, neat
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10:54 < waxwing> log^a(b) and cos^(-k)(theta) are the ones that really get on my nerves
10:55 < sipa> it's also ambiguous
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10:55 < Alanius> how so?
10:55 < sipa> f^{-1}(x) is sometimes used to indicate the inverse function of f (as in: f(f^{-1}(x)) == x)
10:55 < waxwing> you mean what i said? yeah, that's why it gets on my nerves.
10:56 < waxwing> yes cos is just a special case of that screw up
10:56 < nsh> aye, functional inverse being notationally overloaded to reciprocal is one of the worst
10:56 < waxwing> well, no, with f people don't confuse it, but for trig they do, and sometimes log.
10:56 < nsh> someone will eventually restart mathematical notation from a higher categorical departure point and it will be beautiful and nobody will learn or use it
10:56 < waxwing> yeah triangle of power, nice thought
10:57 < sipa> waxwing: i don't think i understand the ambiguity you're talking about
10:58 < nsh> log^x(b) is (log(b))^x where the logarithm base is notionally/conventially implicit, in my maths education anyway
10:58 < nsh> but you get the same issue with -1
10:58 < waxwing> cos^(-1)(theta) traditionally is used for the inverse function, while cos^(2)(theta) is universally the square, but that's inconsistent and confuses people. hmm OK maybe it really is the same for 'f', i forget now.
11:00 < waxwing> nsh, yeah same for log. i'm not sure why but i have it in my head it's much worse with log and trig than just normal functions; probably because people only more rarely write f^2(x) (although they do, of course)
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11:23  * nsh wonders why the sec parameter is given as 1^λ, which seems a lot like 1 for any value of λ
11:24  * nsh reads https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/8404/why-this-k-parameter-is-in-unary-in-adversary-ppt-algorithm
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11:40 < nsh> is it moral to say that a pederson NIZK scheme still has a CRS which is the ancillary group generator[s] and thus still has a trapdoor in theory but this is avoidable by picking the generator element[s] using a NUMS scheme?
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11:42 < waxwing> 'moral'? :) but that's what i've been assuming, too.
11:43 < nsh> i mean fair, i guess. there's some mathematical use of "morally" that i'm failing to emulate :)
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11:44 < nsh> in Bootle+'16 they also exp/mult the basic generator by a random value, which iirc isn't done in CT
11:45 < nsh> ' The commitment key is ck= (G,p,g,g1,...,gn) and acommitment is of the form c=g^r . n/i=1 g^m_i. '
11:46 < nsh> no, i'm probably wrong there
11:47 < nsh> yeah '   commitment = xG + aH' -  https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt
11:49 < waxwing> yes it's just a generalisation of the pedersen commitment to a vector; still only needs one blinding value (so r in the above)
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12:03 < kanzure> nsh: i would prefer irc instead of hangouts for paper reading group. we could even call it #bitcoin-wizards.
12:04 < nsh> there are many for whom line-based typing is not the most fluid and efficient real-time communications modality :)
12:04 < nsh> i can speak at at least a tenth of the speed i think, for typing it's less than 1/100th
12:05 < nsh> your mileage clearly varies :)
12:05 < waxwing> lol
12:05 < waxwing> but what if it's actually the same ratio for kanzure .. :mind_blown.gif:
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12:10 < kanzure> no my bottleneck is input/output (both of them)
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13:35 < nsh> unclear to me what form u [the statement to be proved] takes in the [improved] inner product argument
13:36 < nsh> is it a vector (Z_p)^n?
13:36 < nsh> cc andytoshi
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13:40 <@andytoshi> `u` in the inner product argument is a point
13:41 <@andytoshi> if you mean mu, that's a scalar blinding factor
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13:44 < nsh> ah, ty
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13:59 < nsh> 'These polynomials are carefully constructed such that the zero-coefficient of <l(X),r(X)> ∈ Z_p[X] has a special form if and only if v is in the range.'  #  doesn't any inner product only have a zero-coefficient?
14:04 <@andytoshi> these "polynomials" have vector coefficients, they're basically vectors of polynomials. then their dot product is a polynomial whose coefficients are the dot products of the original polynomials' coefficients
14:04 <@andytoshi> so the inner product is itself a polynomial
14:13 < nsh> oh right
14:13 < nsh> thanks, was wondering about the vector-ness
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14:35 < nsh> oh so you start with a single polynomial whose coefficients encode the value and then you blind by splitting it into a left and right polynomial whose blinding factors cancel out
14:36 < nsh> nm
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23:40 < waxwing> so for the inner product proof, let's say c = <a,b>, prover needs to send the Ls and Rs so like log (n) times (L, R) and also c ... is that it or am i missing something?
23:40 < waxwing> oh and also P right
23:44 < waxwing> ah but of course you have to send the a' and b' values for the final step right. so is it just [L], [R] (lists) and a', b' (single values) .. but also P ?
23:46 < waxwing> ok i think i get it, "P" is external to the proof, so that's why it's 2*log(n) points, for the L and R vals, + 2 scalars (a', b')
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