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10:47 < maaku> so with some added features you can do support of explicit denominations confidential assets, to safely circumvent the 2^64 limit, or to allow smaller base ranges (e.g. 32-bit)
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10:50 < maaku> you do this by defining the next higher denomination to be the generator created from the hash of the smaller denomination, or something like that
10:50 < sipa> maaku: you don't need separate generators for more denominations
10:50 < maaku> and in the transaction you involve explicit conversions between the two
10:51 < maaku> sipa: you do if you want to allow up to 2^256 asset value, because otherwise you invalidate the rangeproof protection
10:51 < sipa> oh, i see
10:52 < maaku> not every application needs that, but e.g. a constant inflation rate asset will run into that
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10:53 < maaku> a gold depository could handle their management fee by issuing 1% per year to themselves, for example
10:56 < maaku> so it works to have an explicit conversion, e.g. append "32 units of the 2^32 deonomination are being converted into the 2^0 denomination"
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10:58 < maaku> but it would be nice if it could be made confidential as well. this would require a scheme for proving that a blinded generator is derived, using some scheme, from another blinded generator (or vice versa)
10:59 < maaku> I think this precludes derivations involving hashing unblinded data
11:00 < maaku> does anyone know any EC-math-only schemes for deriving a new generator where the DL isn't known to anyone?
11:00 < sipa> you mean hashing onto the curve?
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11:15 < nsh> without hashing?
11:15 < maaku> nsh: without traditional hash functions
11:16 < maaku> if it's some sort of EC-hash to start with, I might be able to re-introduce blinding while not invalidating the proof
11:16  * nsh nods
11:17 < maaku> the hope is being able to provide a blinded generator, another blinded generator, and for someone knowing both blinding factors to generate a proof that the base/unblinded generator for the second was derived from the first via the hash-onto-the-curve scheme
11:18 < maaku> but I'm pretty sure the standard way of doing this, e.g. just hash the point with SHA256, isn't verifiable while blinded
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11:18 < nsh> --
11:18 < nsh> As I discovered after releasing this, DJB and others did a similar exercise in the context of manipulated elliptic curves in their "BADA55 curves" paper (http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/bada55.html), though I don't think they released their code. Anyway, they make the same point: "The BADA55-VPR curves illustrate the fact that 'verifiably pseudorandom' curves with 'systematic' seeds generated from 'nothing-up-my-sleeve numbers' also do not stop the attacker
11:18 < nsh> from generating a curve with a one-in-a-million weakness." The two works obviously overlap, but we use slightly different tricks.
11:18 < nsh> -- https://github.com/veorq/numsgen
11:19 < nsh> not promising
11:19 < sipa> nothing can protect against a 1-in-a-million weakness
11:19 < sipa> but NUMS does protect against 1-in-a-trillion
11:20 < nsh> 'The generator points on all six curves are selected as the points of order rb and rd, respectively, with the smallest value for x(P) when represented as a positive integer.' - https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-black-numscurves-00.html#rfc.appendix.B
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11:26 < nsh> maaku, surely as long as the derivation tree is constrained above at some point by at least one [specified] hashed generator then trapdoorness can't be introduced without knowing a nontrivial DL relation?
11:28 < maaku> i think that system-wide trapdoor concern is orthogonal? i'm not concerned about that
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11:38 < nsh> i mean as long as you have at least G and H where the DL of H wrt G isn't known, then you should be able to derive further generators in zk with some pederson linear algebra
11:38 < sipa> nsh: really?
11:40 < nsh> hmm, maybe i'm being silly. will think about it
11:40 < sipa> if you're talking about linear algebra, all the group elements you can construct from G and H are of the form a*G + b*H
11:41 < sipa> which are never linear independent from G and H
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11:56 < nsh> yeah you'd have to do some MPC to instantiate and that would require to assume at least not total collusion between the parties calculating the generator
11:56 < nsh> but it's a one-off problem
11:58 < nsh> but you can bootstrap the computation using a circuit translated into a distributed bulletproofs argument
11:59 < nsh> scheme for LWE challenge generation here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/606.pdf
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16:45 < rusty> AFAIK, the weight of a bitcoin tx doesn't have a unit.  Can we call it the Wuille?  Please please please...
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16:46 < jcorgan> the sipa much easier to figure out how to pronounce :-)
16:46 < yoleaux> 1 Sep 2017 18:24Z <maaku> jcorgan: looks like Google is exploring the word2vec -> semantic network idea I was musing with you about last time we met
16:46 < yoleaux> 1 Sep 2017 18:24Z <maaku> jcorgan: https://research.googleblog.com/2017/08/transformer-novel-neural-network.html
16:47 < jcorgan> i should comment here more often :-)
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16:52 < rusty> jcorgan: Hmm, and it's its own plural: 4M Sipa.  I like it.  (It should be capitalized, according to Google, since it's a proper noun).
16:53 < jcorgan> we have a winner
16:55 < jcorgan> "4 mega-Sipa should be enough for anyone"
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16:56 < sipa> rusty: i've been using vbyte
16:57 < sipa> on the other hand, several sites already call it WU...
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17:00 < rusty> sipa: I've been using "weight" as in, satoshi-per-kiloweight.  But it's awkward.  Sipa is shorter, distinct, and just-a-little fanboi.
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17:03 < rusty> sipa: Sorry, I just found out the Pieter Wuille Facts team have made it official.  http://pieterwuillefacts.com/?50
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17:13 < dcousens> sipa: WU,  but it does make me chuckle in the irony of the SegWit weight-unit potentially being pronounced "Wu"...
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23:10 < Eliel> has anyone worked on a specification for a multisignature script with indirect keys? That is, you'd have a multisig-script that instead of specifying the signing keys directly, specifies key-identifiers of keys recorded in separate transactions beforehand and which are re-assignable without actually spending the multisig transaction itself (reassigning a key would be a less data heavy operation
23:10 < Eliel> than actually making a spend of the multisig txout and potentially can affect multiple txouts at once)
23:11 < Eliel> this came to mind as I was pondering about the practical use of multiparty payment channels that were introduced in a recent paper.
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23:15 < Eliel> although, if re-assignment of a key is possible, then I have no solution currently in mind for how to reconcile that with the security assumptions of payment channels. If not properly designed, it's going to be worse for the payment channel reliability than malleability was
23:16 < Eliel> would need to have some way of ensuring that signatures with the old key, prior to the re-assignment of the signing key remain valid.
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 24 00:00:24 2017