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04:38 < SkyUrion____> oi
04:39 < andrebtc_> oi
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10:46 < kanzure> "Analyzing software requirements errors in safety-critical, embedded systems" https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c77e/fb40fa7ad307314e109b7f8fa7429cbacd4b.pdf
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14:59 < cluelessperson> Has anyone put together a paper on the slow down of block verification over time, with blockchain size?
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15:00 < cluelessperson> Earlier in Bitcoin's history, it'd be much quicker to verify 1MB block against 10MB of history, but then to verify against 100GB of history... you may be referencing transactions from all over the harddrive, right?
15:02 < abbitcryptic> hi guys! is there any *technical* reason we can think of why, hypothetically a "bitcoin unlimited"-style merge-mined side-chain wouldn't work? By this I mean a fork of core code, complete with segwit and all, but removing the blocksize limit and pegging it with btc similar to how RSK plans to do (once the federation is no longer necessary). Now *why* someone would choose to use such a sidechain with giant blocks is a di
15:02 < abbitcryptic> I'd simply like to know if it's technically feasible on top of bitcoin as-is right now :-)
15:03 < sipa> cluelessperson: that's just UTXO set growth
15:03 < sipa> as in, looking things up in a larger database is slower than in a smaller one
15:04 < sipa> no software these days actually looks up the old transaction outputs are being spent from
15:05 < sipa> abbitcryptic: depends on your definition of 'work'
15:05 < sipa> at some capacity things like hard disk speed, memory usage, CPU validation costs, bandwidth, block transmission latency, ... all become problems
15:06 < cluelessperson> sipa: Agreed, I'm trying to understand what that graph looks like.  I was thinking of also running my own test network.
15:06 < abbitcryptic> sipa: ha, fair enough and good points...by 'work' i mean more whether such a sidechain could exist without any modifications or softforks needed to bitcoin as-is
15:06 < cluelessperson> sipa: secondly, what od you mean no software these days looks up old transaction outputs?
15:06 < cluelessperson> aren't new blocks verified?
15:06 < sipa> cluelessperson: we have a database of all unspent outputs
15:07 < sipa> to which new outputs are added
15:07 < sipa> and inputs remove things from
15:07 < cluelessperson> sipa: AH
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15:07 < cluelessperson> sipa: So, bitcoin core saves the blocks raw, but also maintains a UXTO database?
15:07 < cluelessperson> that's really cool, I didn't realzie that
15:07 < sipa> bitcoin core stopped using the 'look up the actual transaction spent from' in 0.8, in 2013
15:07 < sipa> cluelessperson: storing the blocks is optiona
15:08 < cluelessperson> hence pruning
15:08 < sipa> storing the UTXO set is not
15:08 < cluelessperson> beautiful
15:08 < abbitcryptic> cluelessperson: yep, bitcoin core is ultra helpful and fail-safe in that way ;)
15:08 < cluelessperson> AH
15:08 < cluelessperson> and that's what makes segwit better at pruning
15:08 < sipa> no
15:08 < cluelessperson> don't keep signatures in UTXO set?
15:08 < sipa> no
15:08 < sipa> UTXO = unspent transaction _output_
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15:08 < sipa> outputs don't contain signatures
15:08 < cluelessperson> AH
15:08 < cluelessperson> okay
15:09 < cluelessperson> How large is the UTXO set?
15:09 < sipa> the effects of segwit here are:
15:09 < sipa> 2.7 GB
15:09 < sipa> 1) segwit makes inputs cheaper, relative to outputs - hopefully incentivizing people to spend outputs more
15:10 < sipa> 2) segwit introduces an extra potential "half-pruned" state (which isn't implemented anywhere) where a node maintains all outputs and inputs, but not signatures
15:10 < cluelessperson> sipa: I don't see a .dat file for utxo
15:10 < sipa> it's the chainstate/* directory
15:10 < sipa> which is a LevelDB database
15:10 < cluelessperson> ah
15:10  * cluelessperson should lookup leveldb vs berkeleydb attributes
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15:11 < sipa> and the effect of the size is simple: if it fits in ram, it's fast. if it doesn't, it grows slower :)
15:11 < cluelessperson> my chainstate is 3GB
15:11 < sipa> the database has overhead
15:11 < cluelessperson> ah
15:11 < cluelessperson> sipa: Do we have data on measured speed syncing the data as the dataset grows larger?
15:12 < cluelessperson> sipa: I'm looking for real data describing the blocksize debate and how to handle it
15:12 < sipa> cluelessperson: as long as it fits in RAM, the size really doesn't matter
15:13 < sipa> my ideal long-term future is one where full nodes don't actually store the UTXO set anymore
15:13 < sipa> but transactions contains proofs that the UTXOs are valid
15:13 < abbitcryptic> sipa: what would they store instead in that case?
15:13 < sipa> abbitcryptic: just block headers
15:13 < abbitcryptic> ah
15:14 < abbitcryptic> yah so blockheaders and then each tx itself would be sort of "self contained" with regard to proof of valid utxo?
15:14 < sipa> right
15:14 < abbitcryptic> makes sense
15:15 < cluelessperson> sipa: I'm worried about whether or not segwit+lightning will fail in bitcoin, and what other options we may have.
15:15 < cluelessperson> I'm up for giving them a chance, but I'd like to "rank up" to wizard from "user of bitcoin"
15:16 < abbitcryptic> so i realize that my question about an "extreme" side chain might be naive/contrived...but is it possible (presuming enough miners were on board to merge-mine it without a federation)? seems like, if nothing else, would be an interesting experiment :-)
15:17 < abbitcryptic> i fully realize that if there was a "unlimited" sidechain that nodes for that chain would be completely dominated by miners and blocks would be huge (presuming the chain is used at all)...but it could also end up proving many core dev's points about the dangers of big blocks ;)
15:18 < abbitcryptic> also, i would imagine lightning could essentially be used between/among miners on the base (small block chain) and the side (unlimited block size) chain...which is interesting too
15:19 < sipa> abbitcryptic: possible... if you don't care about usability, security, incentives, ... sure
15:19 < sipa> i generally don't believe sidechains offer an interesting security tradeoff regardless
15:19 < abbitcryptic> got it...i might also have my lingo mixed up here too. Would what i'm proposing be a side chain? or is it something else?
15:20 < sipa> cluelessperson: what do you mean by 'fail'?
15:21 < cluelessperson> SegWit has an increase, and lightning would in theory fit more transactions in a segwit transaction, but I'm concerned that people may not use segwit or lightning unless incentivized somehow?  (more so than just avoiding high fees)
15:21 < sipa> that's their problem
15:21 < sipa> both of these technologies offer advantages to their users, regardless of whether anyone else also uses them :)
15:22 < sipa> but lightning *is* a tradeoff
15:23 < abbitcryptic> cluelessperson: i've fiddled with lightning some and it's quite amazing...the usability will certainly get there. My primary concern is the opportunity cost associated with a (even short-term) lock-up of funds. Without a mechanism to price that risk, it concerns me. Other than that though I'm all for lightning :-)
15:23 < sipa> it gives you instant transactions and massively increased scalbility, but its security assumptions are different from bitcoin onchain
15:23 < sipa> and that's fine
15:23 < sipa> no technology fits all use cases
15:23 < abbitcryptic> amen to that!
15:25 < sipa> cluelessperson: so by 'fail' you mean failing to become a commercial or financial succes? sure
15:25 < abbitcryptic> sipa: what are your thoughts on mimble-wimble (or something similar) as a technology adapted to bitcoin down the road? will bitcoin reach a point where complete privacy like that offered by MW could be restored on btc?
15:25 < abbitcryptic> not saying MW is perfect, just more curious as to your thoughts on the privacy possibilities for bitcoin
15:26 < sipa> cluelessperson: it's technology... even if it ends up unsued, i'm sure it will inspire further research
15:26 < sipa> cluelessperson: i don't like seeing technology as a silver bullet
15:26 < sipa> we're all in this search for a system with the best properties possibilities, but we're not there yet
15:27 < sipa> abbitcryptic: i love MW, and i wish i had more time to work on it myself
15:27 < sipa> getting all advantages of MW in bitcoin will almost certainly require an extension block approach though, which is... meh
15:27 < abbitcryptic> i see
15:28 < sipa> MW is in a way far 'purer' money than BTC is
15:28 < sipa> as all outputs and inputs look identical, you have much better fungibility
15:28 < abbitcryptic> yah, it's unfortunate that MW hadn't been "discovered" (as far as we know) back when satoshi released the original version of bitcoin. My guess is he would have tried to push it in to bitcoin, even if it meant sacrificing some scriptability
15:29 < abbitcryptic> but that's sort of the beautiful thing about all of this...its possible to still move forward even if things aren't perfect. Your work on segwit sipa has been very inspiring!
15:30 < sipa> thanks!
15:32 < abbitcryptic> would the weird merge-mined unlimited blocksize chain need to be federated like RSK initially?
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15:34 < cluelessperson> sipa: the world needs something that won't fail
15:34 < cluelessperson> sipa: That's why people are so passionate about bitcoin
15:35 < cluelessperson> myself included.  I want it to change the world.
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16:57 < puff> cluelessperson: AFAIK that's only relevant for the intial blockchain download & validation.
16:59 < puff> cluelessperson: i.e. step one your new install of bitcoin-core downloads all of the existing block data, and then grinds through the blocks and the transactions, re-validating, i.e. running the appropriate math to confirm that all of the hashes etc are correct.  It also saves a lot of the data in dbm files (e.g. leveldb) which essentially act as caches.
17:00 < puff> cluelessperson: Then when new blocks come along, the validation process just uses the hash values and the cached data in the dbm files.
17:01 < puff> cluelessperson: Caveat all of this with, I'm no wizard yet, more like Mickey Mouse in The Sorcerer's Apprentice :-).
17:04 < puff> cluelessperson: Also, re: segwit, this is the clearest explanation I've found of transaction malleability:  http://www.righto.com/2014/02/bitcoin-transaction-malleability.html
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17:36 < sipa> puff: bitcoin core cashes the validity of scripts and signatures in memory.for unconfirmed transactions
17:37 < sipa> but uodates to the UTXO set still need to happrn
17:37 < sipa> sorry, phone typing
17:38 < puff> sipa: Thanks. I'm not sure which part of what I said you are responding to.
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17:44 < puff> abbitcryptic: I'm not too clear on what all is in sidechains, but as far as I can understand it, in theory they're glorified payment channels.  So in theory you could just kludge together some software to make it easy to do payment channels.  I've been assuming that the sidechain projects are working on something more robust and more powerful than just that.
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22:06 < maaku> puff: the sidechain concept doesn't really have anything to do with payment channels
22:06 < maaku> here : https://elementsproject.org/sidechains/
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